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Keilwerth King, New King, & Toneking Breakdown

pete

Brassica Oleracea
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This is also what happens when I look at new pictures. I find that I have an outdated classification system. Please comment and give me more data.

First, from Helen, there are supposed to be at least 6 variations on some King and Toneking horns built in Graslitz (Kraslice):

Modell L: Most basic model with no pearls or rollers.
Modell IV: A simple model with pearls on keys and with rollers.
Modell III: The entry level sax with a front F key; drawn & rolled tone holes; microtuner; and pearls on keys.
Modell II AKA Amerikanisches Modell: This intermediate level sax had the same features as the Modell III, but had the additional features of a G# trill key and strengthened bow trim.
Modell I: This was the pro model that had the same features as the Modell II, but had the additional features of a fork Eb, mother of pearl rollers, and a clothes guard on the left side.
Modell Soloist: Like the Modell I, but with extra mother of pearl key touches.
[Pete note: the "Modell Soloist" is usually stamped "Solist" near the serial number. "Soloist" is a translation. I haven't yet seen one stamped or engraved "Soloist." I have seen one engraved "Solo."]

After approximately 1947, the Special and Exklusiv models were available on some New King and Toneking horns.

At some point, it looks like the Modell L became the Modell V, based on this horn.

While I am interested in knowing about the Modell levels, I'm not concerned with that too much, at the moment. I want to concentrate on just separating based on features. Here's what I've seen:

Made in Graslitz:
Series 1: Split bell keys. Probably Toneking models only.
Series 2: Right bell keys, wire keyguards.
Series 2B: Right bell keys, sheetmetal keyguards.
EDIT: Series 3: Right bell keys, funky side keys, wire keyguards.
EDIT: Series 3B: Right bell keys, funky side keys, sheet metal keyguards.

Made in Nauheim:
Series 4: Left bell keys, bevelled toneholes.
Series 4B: Right bell keys, bevelled toneholes.
Series 5: Plexiglas keyguards.
Series 6: Right bell keys, sheetmetal keyguards. You could include the H Couf and Conn DJH Modified stencils in this category.
Series 7: GJK Toneking. Helen found these. They're the horns made by Amati for Gerhard J. Keilwerth.

Any additions? Subtractions?
 
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pete

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Helen

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The Lus, was actually a version of the King--which is why it was called "Modell Lus". To the best of my knowledge, the Luxor Van Hall was a stencil horn. Oh, and don't forget the King Imperial with its eyebrow key guard a la King and Hohner. (More like King in the sharper edges.)

As for your question:

"Do all pre-Modell Peter Ponzol Keilwerths have to fit into the category of King, New King, or Toneking?"
That's a good one. Off the top of my head I don't have the answer. I have my JK pics spread of a number of hard drives. I'm currently working on my gallery. Once I finish labelling all the images on the Amati, Arta Guban, Borgani, and Buscher horns I just uploaded yesterday, how about I gather all my JK pics together. I have lots I haven't uploaded yet. This should give us a better idea... Maybe...
 

pete

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The Lus, was actually a version of the King--which is why it was called "Modell Lus". To the best of my knowledge, the Luxor Van Hall was a stencil horn. Oh, and don't forget the King Imperial with its eyebrow key guard a la King and Hohner. (More like King in the sharper edges.)
I did forget, actually. Therefore, in your Modell list, above, you need a new entry :p.

Considering that I was getting nothing new when Googling "Luxor Van Hall," I took a look at the two LVH horns I have pictures of. Hmmm. Let's Google, "Van Hall" Luxor, instead. I found this. Of course, it's in German, but running through Google Translate and Pete Transliterate, it looks like there was a company called "Luxor" and Keilwerth made "semi-professional" horns for them, and a Keilwerth employee confirmed that, so bingo on calling it a stencil, Helen! I do wonder if this means that the Arta Guban Timisora Luxor Solo and the occasional Weltklang I see with the "Luxor" name were also made for the company named Luxor...

Jim, one of the reasons why I decided to split the H-Coufs, Conn DJH Modified, and will split, if I see some good pics around, the H&A Selmer Bundy/Bundy Special, Armstrong Heritage, and King Tempos into their own "categories" is because I keep hearing people say that there as some small differences between the horns. I think you could argue that the H-Coufs and DJH Modified horns might be on the more "tweaked" end than a Bundy or Tempo. Or you could try to argue that the King Tempo, Armstrong Heritage, and Bundy were patterned after the "intermediate" Keilwerths, rather than the "pro" models. I've not really looked into that. I just want to be able to effectively categorize stuff.

I'll also maintain I liked my non-rolled-tone-hole Bundy bari a lot. Just unfortunate that it didn't have a low A. You'd be a very happy bari sax camper if you could pick one of those up. I haven't tried any other Keilwerths, though.

Oh. There are also a bunch of horns labeled "Julius Keilwerth." No model name and from both early and late serial number ranges. And Helen and I have seen a couple horns that really look Keilwerth-y but don't have the "Best in the World" stamp.
 

Helen

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Hey Pete. Sorry about the time it's taken to reply to this. A couple of points.

The list of models you quoted from my site were from JK's time in Graslitz during the 1930s. These were the models of King & Toneking saxophones that JK made, not The New King. That model didn't appear until the 1940s. It was the name given to the re-branded Modell II.

About the Luxor Van Hall quote you found on Saxwelt:

Weltklang - Luxor

Die Weltklang Saxophone wurden nicht von Keilwerth gebaut, sondern von der Fa. VEB [Blechblas- und Signalinstrumente, d.L.] für den Großhändler Luxor. VEB war in Klingenthal im Vogtland ansässig. Die Weltklang Saxophone waren Student-Modelle.

Julius Keilwerth fertigte auch Saxophone für Luxor, sie wurden unter dem Namen Van Hall vertrieben und waren semi-professionelle Instrumente. Wenn Keilwerth für Großhändler Sondermodelle gefertigt hat, dann waren es immer die eigenen Original Saxophone nur unter anderer Modellbezeichnung. Luxor war keine Tochtergesellschaft von Keilwerth, sondern wie bereits erwähnt ein Hersteller.

Grüße
Gaby Kerrmann
Helen translate says... ;-)

The Weltklang saxophones were not built by Keilwerth, but by VEB [Blechblas- und Signalinstrumente, d.L.] for the wholesale dealer Luxor. [This is the first I've heard of this, and goes counter to what we know of B&S BTW.) VEB was located in Klingenthal, in the Vogtland. The Weltklang saxophones were student models. [Again, not quite true. These would be perhaps be described as intermediate levels horns, but definitely not student models.]

Julius Keilwerth also manufactured saxophones for Luxor. They were distributed under the name Van Hall, and were intermediate horns. When Keilwerth manufactured special edition horns for wholesalers, then it was always its own original saxophones, just under other model names. Luxor was not a subsidiary of Keilwerth, but as already mentioned, a manufacturer. [Which is a contraction from above when she wrote that they were a wholesaler. I'm guessing she meant to write wholesaler.]
I'm not sure where Gaby Kerrmann got her info from, but as I pointed out inline above, it is not entirely correct.

So to answer your bigger question, yes, all the "Luxor" branded horns from whoever, were ordered for that distributor. They are all stencils. BTW, I have a number of Arta Guban-stencilled Luxors in my gallery. They made them in at least 2 different models. Some had full pearls, other not.
 
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pete

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Regarding the Welklang bit, I wouldn't necessarily put too much weight behind Kerrmann's quote on all horns stamped "Weltklang" = Luxor. While she might have some insider information stuff, she's from Keilwerth, not B&S, so unless I see other documentation supporting the comment, I'll put a lot more weight on your and Uwe's comments.

Regarding Luxor, knowing that all horns stamped "Luxor" were made for Luxor is actually quite helpful. I might spend some additional Internet time trying to see if I can actually find a "Luxor" dealer or store in Germany.

Continued in a minute!
 

pete

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The list of models you quoted from my site were from JK's time in Graslitz during the 1930s. These were the models of King & Toneking saxophones that JK made, not The New King.
That's really my fault. I readjusted my glasses and took a look at three or four horns that I had in my "The New King" albums. They're Tonekings. Ooopsie. Can we do a fund drive so I can get better glasses?

Thanks for the info regarding Lus. Here's a bit of a problem: you mention that Keilwerth started operations in Nauheim on January 29, 1947. The Lus horns that I have dating for are from 1947 and 1950. That's during the time when Keilwerth was putting out those beveled (and soldered) horns. I didn't date those horns, myself, but one of the folks that did is kind of a collector of Germanic horns. I suppose it's possible that Keilwerth did bring some old sax bodies and keywork with him to Nauheim. Additionally, I know Keilwerth started using sheet metal keyguards by 1940 and the last wire keyguard King that's not engraved "Lus" is from 1938, so that narrows it down a lot.
 

Helen

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I'm not sure what Lus horns you're referring to, but the definitive JK serial # chart is found on the Saxwelt website. Given that each person leaving their home in Graslitz was only allowed to bring no more than 50kg of luggage with them, its unlikely Julius--or anyone in his family or employee--would have brought unfinished saxophone bodies with them. That said, maybe someone didn't have much stuff?

As far as the Lus having bevelled tone holes, I have at least one of those in my gallery. It is a King model. Although Gerard didn't expressly mention the Lus in his interview with Uwe, it would make sense that since he was speaking of the differences between Graslitz and Nauheim horns, the Lus didn't really register on the radar screen. King production was over by then. My guess is that they made a few here and there for whatever reason, and sold them with whatever the bodies at the time were. The key guards, number of keys, finishes, engraving, etc. would be what set them apart from the pack.
 

pete

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My "technical difficulties" ...

... were that my picture gallery went a little nuts. It started throwing empty copies of albums I created all over the place. I had to restore from backup, which wiped out a portion of the Keilwerth stuff I added. Joy.

For amusing reference, when my provider says,

"Weekly backup," that means, "Backup from 7 to 30 days ago." In this case, April 17.
"Daily backup," that means, "Early in the AM on the day you want a backup from."
"Monthly backup," that means, "More than seven days ago, but not necessarily 30 days ago." In this case, April 23. Yes, my "monthly backup" is more current than my "weekly backup."

Anyhow, the April 23rd backup was also broken, so I had to use April 17. I added a bunch of pics in those 9 days. *Sigh* If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could figure out where those pics went to and how to re-add them with SQL, but that would take time I don't want to spend.
Anyhow, provided I don't have any more problems, this is a s/n 20280 Lus. That'd be 1950. This is a 1947 Lus, according to the guy that sold it. Yup. Beveled tone holes on both. The 1947 horn is actually rather nice looking, too. It doesn't have as elaborate of keyguards, but it makes up for it with engraving.

So, I guess the question is more, "When did Keilwerth finally discontinue the King model?" I'm wondering if that could be as late as 1955, when you say that Amati Toneking kerfuffle was resolved.
 

Helen

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