Need info on Selmer New York Bari Sax Low Pitch
- Thread starter mphellrung
- Start date
Hi there. Welcome to the WF.
About this sax there.... It was made by the Buescher company and is what they call a stencil saxophone. A stencil is a horn that was made by one of the major manufacturers--in this case Buescher--for another company--in this case Selmer USA--or perhaps a music store. The ordering company would then have their name engraved, or stencilled, on the saxophone, and then the horn was sold without any reference to the actual manufacturer.
The problem with American stencil saxophones is that they don't follow the serial number charts their name brand cousins. In other words, looking up your sax's serial # in the Buescher serial # chart won't help you identify when it was made. Generally speaking a stencil horn's age needs to be approximated more by its features, and in some cases name, than by serial #.
If you read my page on stencil saxophones I linked to, you'll see that I mention something about American stencil horn's features. Those "stripped down" features are visible on the Selmer USA horn. It has no mother of pearl key touches like those we normally see from Bueschers from the 1920s. More importantly though, notice that the sax is only keyed to high Eb. For some this could cause a problem--it entirely depends on what you're doing with it, and how accomplished a player you are. Accomplished players work around this by going into the altissimo range earlier than they would normally. For others, this limited range is a deal breaker.
Is it a quality sax? Sure, it was a decent horn when it was made. One of our Moderators on this forum has a Selmer USA-made Buescher bass saxophone. That said, I can't speak to the quality of that particular horn from the limited photos provided. It looks OK, but photos only tell part of the story. As with any online buys, it is always a crap shoot.
Are you thinking of buying this sax yourself? Are you selling it?
Due to its limited range, and it being a stencil horn, it will not fetch as money as a brand name Buescher True Tone, in similar condition, of the same time period, with a range going to the full high F.
Hope this has been somewhat helpful.
About this sax there.... It was made by the Buescher company and is what they call a stencil saxophone. A stencil is a horn that was made by one of the major manufacturers--in this case Buescher--for another company--in this case Selmer USA--or perhaps a music store. The ordering company would then have their name engraved, or stencilled, on the saxophone, and then the horn was sold without any reference to the actual manufacturer.
The problem with American stencil saxophones is that they don't follow the serial number charts their name brand cousins. In other words, looking up your sax's serial # in the Buescher serial # chart won't help you identify when it was made. Generally speaking a stencil horn's age needs to be approximated more by its features, and in some cases name, than by serial #.
If you read my page on stencil saxophones I linked to, you'll see that I mention something about American stencil horn's features. Those "stripped down" features are visible on the Selmer USA horn. It has no mother of pearl key touches like those we normally see from Bueschers from the 1920s. More importantly though, notice that the sax is only keyed to high Eb. For some this could cause a problem--it entirely depends on what you're doing with it, and how accomplished a player you are. Accomplished players work around this by going into the altissimo range earlier than they would normally. For others, this limited range is a deal breaker.
Is it a quality sax? Sure, it was a decent horn when it was made. One of our Moderators on this forum has a Selmer USA-made Buescher bass saxophone. That said, I can't speak to the quality of that particular horn from the limited photos provided. It looks OK, but photos only tell part of the story. As with any online buys, it is always a crap shoot.
Are you thinking of buying this sax yourself? Are you selling it?
Due to its limited range, and it being a stencil horn, it will not fetch as money as a brand name Buescher True Tone, in similar condition, of the same time period, with a range going to the full high F.
Hope this has been somewhat helpful.
Take a peek. This is the neck from the Selmer New York. This is a pic of the neck from a True Tone the Selmer NY was stenciled from (thanks to Helen's pic gallery). To me, I see a big difference in the sizes. That's probably going to make the horn horridly hard to play in tune. Yes, you can get an aftermarket neck that would work ... for $569. Something cheaper? Well, I think it'd be incredibly difficult to find a "parts horn" True Tone bari that you can swap a neck off of on eBay. Two reasons: I don't often see True Tones that old and newer "series" of True Tones have a slightly different neck (look at the key on this one). Of course, if the horn itself is overhauled (it doesn't look like it is) and it's less than $1000, I'd certainly think about buying it. Hey, $1600 for a perfect bari isn't bad at all. However, I think you might find better, newer baritones for a bit more.
I had to leave you guys something to write about. 
Pete speaks the truth, you can get good deals on vintage baris if you look. I recently picked up a lovely Martin Committee III and had it overhauled for <$2K. It is now my primary bari, while my Mark VI takes a bit of a holiday.
The thing about baris though is that you have to be patient--more patient than for the smaller horns since their are relatively fewer of them. So many of them have been beaten to hell that if you want to find a nice one, you need to be choosy and take your time. Spend lots of time looking at stuff, and budget on an overhaul. If you're buying your horn online, remember larger horns are more prone to shipping damage as well.
Pete speaks the truth, you can get good deals on vintage baris if you look. I recently picked up a lovely Martin Committee III and had it overhauled for <$2K. It is now my primary bari, while my Mark VI takes a bit of a holiday.
The thing about baris though is that you have to be patient--more patient than for the smaller horns since their are relatively fewer of them. So many of them have been beaten to hell that if you want to find a nice one, you need to be choosy and take your time. Spend lots of time looking at stuff, and budget on an overhaul. If you're buying your horn online, remember larger horns are more prone to shipping damage as well.
mphellrung
Band Parent
Yes, this Selmer stencil horn was professionally restored. The seller disclosed:
"replaced the pads, all weak springs, adjusted it and tested it. ... NOS neck was brass so I had it silver plated. New neck cork. Keys have been hand polished."
I bought it for $850 for my high school junior. I wanted to see if I could track down its history. I'm attaching a serial and engraving pic.
The Conn-Selmer table shows it as ~1949, but being a stencil, that might not be accurate.
Any information will be much appreciated
FTFY.
There are no accurate US-made stencil serial numbers. What you generally do is figure out what horn was stenciled and add on a few years. In this case, the professional model that this horn was stenciled from was produced in the early 19-teens. Therefore I'd say your horn is no newer than 1925, and it's more likely from 1920ish.
I think it's possible that the seller did find a Buescher baritone sax neck from someplace, but it's probably from a really late model Buescher, Bundy, or Selmer USA horn. I doubt you'll find "NOS" body parts for an almost 100 year old horn
. (I really, really hope the seller didn't give you a neck from the new, East Asian-made Bueschers.)In any event, I did mention "under $1000 for an overhauled horn," so you could afford a 3rd party neck. Did you get a case and mouthpiece, too?
mphellrung
Band Parent
Did some more research. The horn is made by Conn. They made all the Baritone Saxes for Selmer New York. It appears to be a stencil similar to the Selmer Model 22. The replacement neck comes from a Conn 12M and plays great! Thanks for everyone's input.
I decided to elaborate because it's moderately important for other folks that might come across this thread.
First, no Selmer New York horns were made by Selmer Paris. (Selmer Paris is the company that made the Mark VI, etc.) All of the Selmer New York horns are stencils. "Stencil" refers to a horn built by a manufacturer for another company or storefront that would literally take a stencil, put it on the horn's bell and engrave that pattern. In the case of US-made stencils, the stenciled horn usually lacks some of the features of the horn it was stenciled from. As an example, Conn-made stencils always lack rolled tone holes.
The main reason why Selmer New York horns are included in the Conn section here is because Conn owned a large percentage of Selmer NY, so the vast majority of Selmer New York horns are stencils of various Conn models.
Second, the vast majority of US-made bass saxophones were made by Conn and Buescher. Holton made one for a little while and HN White (King) may have prototyped one. It's possible that Conn, Buescher, or HN White also made a Eb contrabass or two, but they would have been prototypes, only, and not for sale to the general public. (Conn sold the Eb contrabass Sarrusophone -- with optional single-reed mouthpiece -- as their Eb contrabass sax equivalent and I've seen that Buescher sold a variety of non-Buescher-badged Rothophones in their old catalogs.)
Here's the important part:
If someone buys a horn that is missing a part, it's important that you get another part that doesn't just "fit," but matches. I can make parts "fit" with wire snips and a blowtorch. That doesn't mean it's going to work well or at all, but it'll fit. Adding a couple inches to the horn, especially in the neck, will really throw off intonation. The best recommendation I can give you, if you're missing parts, is to try and find a junker horn that's got a serial number close to that of your horn and strip parts from that. For stencils, you have the added bonus that you can try to figure out what your horn was stenciled from and use that as another source of parts. Note that I mentioned "around the same serial number." That's important because, say, Conn made a model called "New Wonder" for about 20 years. The horns changed dramatically during that time.
Here's a "YMMV" coda:
Most of what I've heard other people say about Selmer New York-branded horns is positive. That doesn't mean that all US-made stencils are good. I know of someone saying that when Buescher made stencils, they used older tooling. I've played a couple of Conn-made Cavaliers and they're horrid. However, this is only true for US-made stencils. As I mention above, a the only difference between most European-made stencils and the horns they're stenciled from is the engraving. However, there were companies that made good copies of other pro horns (Ditta Giglio, for instance) and some do seem to be of lower quality (Olds Parisian Ambassador).
The final thing to note is it's rather rare for one company to make all the stencils another company offered. My favorite example is Vega. Conn, Buescher, Holton, Martin, HN White, and probably EA Couturier and York had a stencil named "Vega."
First, no Selmer New York horns were made by Selmer Paris. (Selmer Paris is the company that made the Mark VI, etc.) All of the Selmer New York horns are stencils. "Stencil" refers to a horn built by a manufacturer for another company or storefront that would literally take a stencil, put it on the horn's bell and engrave that pattern. In the case of US-made stencils, the stenciled horn usually lacks some of the features of the horn it was stenciled from. As an example, Conn-made stencils always lack rolled tone holes.
The main reason why Selmer New York horns are included in the Conn section here is because Conn owned a large percentage of Selmer NY, so the vast majority of Selmer New York horns are stencils of various Conn models.
Second, the vast majority of US-made bass saxophones were made by Conn and Buescher. Holton made one for a little while and HN White (King) may have prototyped one. It's possible that Conn, Buescher, or HN White also made a Eb contrabass or two, but they would have been prototypes, only, and not for sale to the general public. (Conn sold the Eb contrabass Sarrusophone -- with optional single-reed mouthpiece -- as their Eb contrabass sax equivalent and I've seen that Buescher sold a variety of non-Buescher-badged Rothophones in their old catalogs.)
Here's the important part:
If someone buys a horn that is missing a part, it's important that you get another part that doesn't just "fit," but matches. I can make parts "fit" with wire snips and a blowtorch. That doesn't mean it's going to work well or at all, but it'll fit. Adding a couple inches to the horn, especially in the neck, will really throw off intonation. The best recommendation I can give you, if you're missing parts, is to try and find a junker horn that's got a serial number close to that of your horn and strip parts from that. For stencils, you have the added bonus that you can try to figure out what your horn was stenciled from and use that as another source of parts. Note that I mentioned "around the same serial number." That's important because, say, Conn made a model called "New Wonder" for about 20 years. The horns changed dramatically during that time.
Here's a "YMMV" coda:
Most of what I've heard other people say about Selmer New York-branded horns is positive. That doesn't mean that all US-made stencils are good. I know of someone saying that when Buescher made stencils, they used older tooling. I've played a couple of Conn-made Cavaliers and they're horrid. However, this is only true for US-made stencils. As I mention above, a the only difference between most European-made stencils and the horns they're stenciled from is the engraving. However, there were companies that made good copies of other pro horns (Ditta Giglio, for instance) and some do seem to be of lower quality (Olds Parisian Ambassador).
The final thing to note is it's rather rare for one company to make all the stencils another company offered. My favorite example is Vega. Conn, Buescher, Holton, Martin, HN White, and probably EA Couturier and York had a stencil named "Vega."
Pete has already provided an elaborate explanation why this is not a Selmer Paris or Conn, and reiterated my initial comments about stencils. That said, what we haven't done, is given any photos to show the differences between Conn and Buescher saxophones. The biggest differences is in the key guards. Conn has what is commonly referred to a "Mercedes-style" key guards on the low C key. (The one at the bow of the horn.) Compare the 2 links I just provided to those key guards on the Buescher. Notice the key guard on the Selmer New York you have is the same as on that on the Buescher, not on the Conn.
Selmer Paris never made any stencils. They did however make the Modele 22 you mention. You're confusing Selmer USA and Selmer Paris. They were, and still are, 2 separate companies.
mphellrung
Band Parent
My mistake, Conn made all the Selmer New York bass saxophones (probably less than 100). I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned Selmer Paris. However, this saxophone more closely resembles the Buescher True Tone than the Selmer Modele 22. Check out this picture of the Buescher True Tone Eb Baritone Model 129. The replacement neck is not original but very similar. So, would it be correct to say that this "Selmer New York" is a stencil of a "Buescher True Tone Eb Baritone Model 129"?
Given that, is it possible to nail down the manufacture date? Besides the low C key guard, notice the floor rest on the bow ...
Given that, is it possible to nail down the manufacture date? Besides the low C key guard, notice the floor rest on the bow ...
I'm not sure where you're getting you're information, but Buescher did in fact make Selmer New York bass saxophones.
Yes, your Buescher bari is in fact a stencil of the Buescher bari, but if you look closely at the ad you linked to from my website, you'll notice that it says that the baritone is keyed to high F. Your baritone is only keyed to high Eb. This means that it has a more limited range, and is as Pete described, based on older tooling. On my page about stencil saxophones I also mention that:
Pete was kind enough to find an older Buescher True Tone from my gallery that looks like your horn. It is baritone # 10287. Although it is (re)lacquered, while your bari is silver plated, the lack of mother of pearls on the key touches, and the key work only being up to high Eb, indicate that your horn is based on this design of True Tone baritone. According to Saxpics, this design of True Tone (the Ia) was built approximately between 1905-1916.
However, due to yours being a stencil horn, Selmer USA could have ordered it anytime--even in the late 1920s. So unfortunately we really can't say when your baritone might have been built.
PS: The reason we're talking about Selmer Paris, is that the Modele 22 was made by Selmer Paris, and you mentioned the 22. We were just clearing up any misconceptions.
Yes, your Buescher bari is in fact a stencil of the Buescher bari, but if you look closely at the ad you linked to from my website, you'll notice that it says that the baritone is keyed to high F. Your baritone is only keyed to high Eb. This means that it has a more limited range, and is as Pete described, based on older tooling. On my page about stencil saxophones I also mention that:
Pete was kind enough to find an older Buescher True Tone from my gallery that looks like your horn. It is baritone # 10287. Although it is (re)lacquered, while your bari is silver plated, the lack of mother of pearls on the key touches, and the key work only being up to high Eb, indicate that your horn is based on this design of True Tone baritone. According to Saxpics, this design of True Tone (the Ia) was built approximately between 1905-1916.
However, due to yours being a stencil horn, Selmer USA could have ordered it anytime--even in the late 1920s. So unfortunately we really can't say when your baritone might have been built.
PS: The reason we're talking about Selmer Paris, is that the Modele 22 was made by Selmer Paris, and you mentioned the 22. We were just clearing up any misconceptions.
mphellrung
Band Parent
There's a rather extensive thread on Sax-on-the-Web regarding Buescher baritone model numbers. I'm not looking it up ATM, because I'm lazy, but the upthrust is you really shouldn't look at model numbers. You should look at features. As an example, the Conn model numbers you mentioned earlier -- 6m, 10m, 12m -- were used for about 50 years. What the "M" means is "saxophone" and "6" means "low pitch, Eb alto." Conn eventually recycled their model numbers in the 1960s and later, too, so "11M" no longer meant "high pitch Bb tenor," but "(low pitch) Eb baritone with low A extension." In other words, someone telling me he's got a 12M only tells me that he's got a baritone saxophone. And, no, "Naked Lady" isn't a Conn model name and it means something different to everyone.
Again, your horn is a stencil of an extremely early Buescher True Tone, produced between approximately 1905 and 1917 (again, your horn is a stencil of this, probably made in the early 1920s, as I mention above). I call these the "IA" model of the True Tone. Also note that if your horn doesn't have the Dec. 8 1914 patent date stamped on the horn, the tone hole "chimneys" on your horn are probably soldered and not drawn. That'd would make your horn more interesting to those of us with a semi-historical bent, as a footnote. For you, that means you have another source of potential leaks
.As Helen mentions above, I can easily say that your horn isn't a stencil of one of those Model 129s in the catalogs you picture for an obvious reason: you're missing an altissimo F key and vent.
Oh. I mentioned I knew that Conn had a large stake in Selmer NY. It was 49.9%. If you're interested, that article I just linked is from Conn researcher Margaret Downie-Banks. It's a nice article, but it's now only on Archive.org. I'm kind of surprise that it got taken down.
Just as a bit of an object lesson, look at what I got in my e-mail today:
Two pics; click to embiggen.
It's a Selmer New York curved Bb soprano. In the second picture (the one of the bell engraving), you can note that it has beveled toneholes. Buescher did produce some horns with beveled toneholes (linky with Buescher ad) and most, if not all, EA Couturier/Lyon and Healy, and Martins have beveled toneholes. The other fun thing is that Martin and Buescher curved sopranos look very much alike. I can tell them apart -- usually -- by the G# cluster and the reinforcement on the bottom of the bow. Couturier is out because you don't have the "Mercedes-Benz" low C guard and the serial number and "low pitch" stamp are too dissimilar. I'm awaiting more pics.
Two pics; click to embiggen.
It's a Selmer New York curved Bb soprano. In the second picture (the one of the bell engraving), you can note that it has beveled toneholes. Buescher did produce some horns with beveled toneholes (linky with Buescher ad) and most, if not all, EA Couturier/Lyon and Healy, and Martins have beveled toneholes. The other fun thing is that Martin and Buescher curved sopranos look very much alike. I can tell them apart -- usually -- by the G# cluster and the reinforcement on the bottom of the bow. Couturier is out because you don't have the "Mercedes-Benz" low C guard and the serial number and "low pitch" stamp are too dissimilar. I'm awaiting more pics.