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New Mark VI

Hi

I wasn't sure if I should post it here or in the saxophone repair sub-forum. When I posted in the Selmer section on another forum it got a rude reply... but people here are nicer :)

I just saw this new Selmer Mark VI tenor. Obviously it's not new, it's about 50 years old, but it's pretty much like a new one. Still has the plastic wrap!

The most incredible thing was the setup and accuracy. This is, without a doubt, the most accurately made saxophone I've seen straight from the factory. The fit of the keys is just excellent and I rarely see this on new saxophones or any other old like-new saxophones. Almost all pads (all are still original) seal great (only a few need to be replaced). The main problem is a lot of corks and felts are missing, I guess the glue failed after 50 years!

I wish saxophone companies now would build saxophones to this standard, but anyway... it was nice to see.
 
You want rude replies?????

We can't handle rude replies here. Sarcastic ones, perhaps, but not rude.

I have run into a few of these over the years, most notable at a college that I "attended" (at least that's what my parents wanted me to do there; I hated the place and welcomed my draft notice when it came to rescue me from another year there) back in the day.

Of course, that particular batch wasn't all that old at the time - a matter of seven years or so, rather than fifty. But, the horns lay in an "old instrument storage room", a complete set from soprano to baritone, and with the plastic bags and the corks still in place on each one.

The current incumbent in the music department head chair didn't know they were there - I could have walked them off if I had been something less than honest. Damn me and my sense of integrity!
 
I think that this topic was one that might be a little tough for the rude guy on the other forum to properly digest.

What I see here is a time capsule, a small throwback to another time, another generation.

As an official card carrying old guy, your post, and photo, stimulates my memory, and carries me back to the summer of '64, which featured the Beatles, the Supremes, the brand new Ford Mustang and Pontiac GTO, Goldfinger and 007, surfboard and beach movies, and the Honda 50 motorbike which was priced at $215.00. Of course, I'm talking about my experiences as a 14 year old here in the USA.

But I also remember the horns, the saxophones. I was playing a new Bundy Special baritone that my school had just purchased, and my Dad had bought a new Buescher 400 alto that I kept in the house. The Selmer mk6 was the horn that me and my saxophone buddies aspired to play and own. The King, the Martin, and the Conn were great horns, but they didn't have the slickness of the mk6.

I owned three new mk6's before the model run came to a close, two altos and a bari. I still have the bari. For me, these horns were the best that my money could buy back in those days, and, in my estimation, it was a great time to be a saxophone player, to be able to walk into a store and to have your pick of a number of brand new mk6's.

It's a testament to how finely crafted these horns were when they were new that we evaluate and deal in these horns today. They still seem to be the gold standard that all horns are compared to. I know for a fact that lots of todays mk6's have been "blowed out" over the years, but even these super high mileage examples still have the core sound they've been known for, and still service their owners very well.

claribass, thanks for sharing a unique insight.

Julian
 
Thanks for posting that. When one only sees Mark VI's that have been played to death, poorly maintained, or poorly repaired it is difficult to tell what they were like just out of the factory. Maybe one needs to call their overhauls of Mark VI's "as good as new" rather than "better than new" in the interest of accuracy. The one advantage we have as techs over those in the 50's and 60's is the availability of synthetic materials. I don't think tools or repair techniques have changed that much over the years. Diamond grit circular tonehole "files" and rare earth magnets are the only exceptions that come to mind that make repairs easier and faster.
 
The oldest "new, in plastic" sax I've heard of has to be the gold-plated Buescher True-Tone sopranino that Matt Stohrer had a couple years ago. That'd be an 80 year old "new" horn.

jbtsax said:
When one only sees Mark VI's that have been played to death, poorly maintained, or poorly repaired it is difficult to tell what they were like just out of the factory. Maybe one needs to call their overhauls of Mark VI's "as good as new" rather than "better than new" in the interest of accuracy. The one advantage we have as techs over those in the 50's and 60's is the availability of synthetic materials. I don't think tools or repair techniques have changed that much over the years. Diamond grit circular tonehole "files" and rare earth magnets are the only exceptions that come to mind that make repairs easier and faster.
Interesting comment. I'd have to ask something before I comment: would you then say that a brand new Mark VI in 1954 is set-up better than a fully overhauled 1954 Mark VI by <insert famous-name repair guy>?
 
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Interesting comment. I'd have to ask something before I comment: would you then say that a brand new Mark VI in 1954 is set-up better than a fully overhauled 1954 Mark VI by <insert famous-name repair guy>?

What I would say is that IF a brand new saxophone came from the factory with the key fitting, spring adjustment, key height, tonehole leveling, and pad seating done to as close to perfection as possible that a skilled tech could restore the sax to that same mechanical condition, but not improve upon it.

It could be argued that a skilled tech could possibly improve upon the playing characteristics of a particular instrument by altering the neck taper, adding inserts to toneholes, changing octave pip openings, reducing volume in the bell bow, etc. However, in my thinking this falls under the category of modifications to the original design---which is beyond the realm of a mechanical restoration that is commonly called an "overhaul".
 
Yes I guess it is a sort of a time capsule. For me most interesting was how well it was made. Does anyone know how much a new Mark VI like this cost in 1964 (preferably in France where this one was upposedly sold) and how much that would be today considering inflation (in Euros maybe)? Or in $US in USA if someone only knows that.

I mostly agree with John but, I've seen some other saxophones in like-new condition, including Mark VIs (though none as nice and new as this one) and they weren't as well made as this one. I think they varied then too.

It is true that different materials available now are an improvement. The build of this Mark VI is pretty much as good as a great overhaul (after the few things that need repair will be repaired). Some corks on this sax sort of "melted" and a lot are missing, but that's not surprising after 50 years.

But it is not only the materials themsevles that are better now. The materials used on this Mark VI are not the best for each location and that is regardless of what was available. They didn't make the best choice. They also didn't shape the materials the best way possible for some linkages, something that was completely possible back then. So IMO an overhaul by a great repairer, even back then, would still be better than what this Mark VI had when new, assuming the repairer would use those advantages mentioned.

I also there are tools available in addition to those John mentioned that make repairs faster and easier. One is a dental micromotor, which if available back then, were definitely not nearly as good as those available now. There are also round steel tone hole files which I prefer in some ways to the diamond ones that I don't know if they were available then or not (I use both steel and diamond ones).

It does feel equal to a great overhaul in how the keys are fitted. That's the most impressive thing. It is especially nice since on this model most of the keys, springs and linkages are a very good design.

Other than the setup re materials, the Mark VI does have a few issues in its design. Specifically some of the key arms and a couple of linkages, that are better on some other models. However models with these without these particular issues are often worse in other ways.

This Mark VI has my favorite finish, silver plating without engraving. The person who brought it also brought his current tenor, a Selmer SA80 SII, also silver plated without engraving. It was interesting to compare them.

It was obvious there was a lot more thought into the design of the Mark VI. I mean, there was obviously some thought put into the SII, for example the springs had a different design that IMO make them feel worse, but they obviously purposely changed the design. I don't know why. I don't know for sure, but I think they thought a lot about lowering costs with the models after the Mark VI. I know that is the reason they started making the springs at the end of hinge rods.

The two tenors sounded very similar. Both had a really nice and full tone and excellent intonation. I preferred the Mark VI because of the feel of the keys, it was much lighter and I also preferred the tone slightly. The SII had a bit more punchy and full tone. The Mark VI was a bit smoother and more delicate. That's the best I can desribe it. I think in a blind test of the tone alone I think many would prefer the SII, but I think very few would prefer the feel of the SII.

This wasn't the best Mark VI that I've played, or rather not the one I preferred most, but it was excellent. It was also very even in tone and response in all registers. A truely great saxophone!
 
The 7 ushered in the era of faster manufacturing, and less quality control than what the VI was all about. They also changed the design quite considerably, and even had inconsistent quality in things such as the register pip.

Selmer then had to compete against the likes of Yamaha now, and up and coming Yanigasawa. They knew the European competition where Buffet & Keilwerth lacked marketing and everyone else was secondary. Yamaha though, originally with the 61s and then the 62s really got some market there. Then later the 855 and 875s

The longer springs and velvety feel of the 6s ended with the shorter springs of the 7s. They got even cheaper with later Series II with they riveted the ribs on before soldering.

I really like the Reference horns though.
 
The build of this Mark VI is pretty much as good as a great overhaul ....

So IMO an overhaul by a great repairer, even back then, would still be better than what this Mark VI had when new, assuming the repairer would use those advantages mentioned.
You can't have it both ways, Clarnibass :p.

I love using car analogies, but this is one place where they fail: is a 2012 Ford better than a 1954 Ford? Yes. In almost every way. Is a 1954 Mark VI better than a 2012 Super Action 80 Serie III? The materials used to make it are about the same, except the corks, pads, felts might be a little different. Tooling to make all the parts are probably very much the same, other than the fact that Selmer could model everything on a computer to come up with a better design, for whatever definition of "better." The point, of course, is that Selmer made a really nice horn in the VI without having to have all the technological, etc. advancements.

Another thing I look at is something like, "Selmer makes apps. 20,000 horns a year. SML produced 27,000 horns over 50 years." That's not to say that SML produced better horns, but they probably paid more attention to building one horn than Selmer does for 20,000 horns.
 
the question of manufacturing time also goes to if they have manual processes for partially or fully automated processes. Such as drawing toneholes. I imagine SML drew toneholes by hand, thus it required much longer to finish a sax body. Selmer, I think especially with the VII automated alot of stuff.

The old Selmer Paris website actually talked about this in some detail .. but has since been lost.
 
I bought a "closet" Mark VI tenor about 20 years ago. I play a King, and I also had my father's Mark VI tenor in mint condition. I didn't need the extra Mark VI but the price was right. I spent a year comparing my newly acquired Mark VI to the one owned by my father. Obviously, I wanted to keep my dad's horn, but eventually I had to admit that the other tenor (100% original pads and lacquer) was better.

I sold my father's horn to a New York dealer who sold it a few days later to Michael Brecker.

I'm keeping the other tenor. If some nutty bandleader insists that I play a Selmer instead of a King, I have one. If someone offers me five figures, or close to it, I'll sell.

IT's still original lacquer and pads, but I did change the high F pad. It was the only one that looked even slightly shakey.
 
You can't have it both ways, Clarnibass :p.
I can... because it's not :)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough that by "build" I meant accuracy of the keys, hinges, rods, posts, etc. This excludes those things that would be better in an overhaul by a very good repairer e.g. the choice and shape of materials (which could have been better even with what was available at the time). I hope this clarifies it.

Of course this doesn't include things that are not changed in an overhaul (or ever really) such as the way in which Mark VI can lack in some key arm design, etc.

Another thing I look at is something like, "Selmer makes apps. 20,000 horns a year. SML produced 27,000 horns over 50 years." That's not to say that SML produced better horns, but they probably paid more attention to building one horn than Selmer does for 20,000 horns.
Maybe, but that also has to do with the size of the factory e.g. people per instrument, etc. It's entirely possible that a bigger company would have better QC (or not).
 
I mostly agree with John but, I've seen some other saxophones in like-new condition, including Mark VIs (though none as nice and new as this one) and they weren't as well made as this one. I think they varied then too.

Selmer's quality control obviously was not their first preoccupation back to the time of the Mk6.
Some years ago, I had lengthy discussions with Gérard Badini, a top class French tenor with an unmistakable sound "à la " Eddie Davis, good arranger and bigband leader (Gerard Badini Swing Machine) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSqMD_vY6yY. Our band had him as a guest star for a memorable concert and he was staying at our home.
At this time, his main source of income had been for many years that of "main test player" for Selmer, one of the tasks of which was to select the best saxes to be handed or sold to prominent players. At the time of our meeting he just had choosen a tenor for Stan Getz. After a couple of wine glasses he acknowledeged that a fair proportion of the output was "near crap" which needed heavy investment in initial adjustment by the unlucky buyer. But Selmer's management, spurred by the better adjusted Japanese axes coming out to the market had initiated a large QC action.
 
There's a horn somebody could easily play for the next 40 years.

I saw some years ago a new in the wrapper King Super 20 that was build in the late 1970's or early 1980's. I was blown away by the experience and could only imagine how it would feel to hold a vintage 40 or 50 year old VI that had likely never been played.
 
I was blown away by the experience and could only imagine how it would feel to hold a vintage 40 or 50 year old VI that had likely never been played.

...especially since, never having been played, it would not have the moldy smell that seems built into so many older horns...
 
...especially since, never having been played, it would not have the moldy smell that seems built into so many older horns...
Well, if the case got moldy ....

I had a great aunt that had complications with diabetes and had to have a leg amputated. When that happened, she put her car -- a new 1940's Ford, IIRC -- in storage and never touched it again. When she died, the car was looked at: someone opened the door and it came off. Rust everywhere. Total loss. That's what happens without climate-controlled storage in Western NY.
 
A couple of years ago, the Selmer factory representative for the store where I work found 2 unsold brand new Mark VI alto saxes in a small music store. Selmer USA bought the horns back from the dealer and they were offering them for sale at a ridiculously high price.

One had literally never been played. It was still in the plastic wrap with the original cork wedges holding the keys closed. The other alto had been played by a few people who were seriously interested in buying the saxophone.

Both horns had the typical smell of musty brass, although not as bad as old silver plated horns because they were lacquered. Also, both showed some green verdigris around the tonehole edges, even though the lacquer was perfect.

Leave anything long enough without maintenance, and it will deteriorate, and usually it will smell.
 
Here are a few more photos.

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