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PBS' Antiques Roadshow Evaluates an SBA (video)

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
OK. That video hurt. Even beyond the fact that it would only play in Microsoft Edge.
 

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
It's the "bling" that makes it top the price scales I bet. Oh, if only I had bling on my Selmers... Sigh....

Doesn't this make you question what these people are saying on all appraisals? Sure, maybe insured for that, but retail? I'm having a hard time seeing it... But then maybe I'm uber cheap... ;)
 

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
The video was specific on the appraisal part of it, for insurance purposes.

Years ago i went on a search to determine what an appraisal value is after I had several people wanting me to buy their clarinet for some outrageous prices. They always stated that some guy with a magical blue book told them how much it was worth. But when you look at eBay's open market their valuation was way out of whack.

I finally got hold of one of these magical blue books.
In essence, the appraised value was for replacement cost of that level of clarinet.

So, for instance, if you had a pre-R13 Professional Buffet, the appraised, or what I like to call "insurable value" was the amount it would take to replace it at the current product. Thus your 60 year old Professional Buffet is worth as much as a current Brand-NEW professional Buffet. This would insure (pun intended) that if it was lost or stolen that you would be able to replace it with a comparable model today by walking into a retail store and walking out with a comparable pro instrument (based on the insurable value NOT it's market value).

With those magical blue books I also told the seller to go to that person and have them buy it for that value. NONE of those magical blue book holders would buy the instrument at that amount. Why would they? They would lose money upon attempting to resell it or write it off in inventory.

Thus I created this page http://clarinetperfection.com/ClarinetValue.htm back in 2008.
which one of these days I've going to reevaluate prices
but it breaks down valuations on (a) auction/open market, (b) online store, (c) retail store, and (d) insurable value; as they all are different.

The entire thing is people need to differentiate Auction/Open Markets which normally is sold "as-is"
to an online retailer versus a brick & mortar retail store, versus insurance valuations for replacement versus NEW.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Doesn't this make you question what these people are saying on all appraisals?
Yup.

Comments on Steve's comments:
I know I've talked about insurance cost vs. actual amount someone would pay for it. In the case of this SBA, if you were to replace it with a modern equivalent, you could argue for the Super 80 Serie III in lacquer finish, i.e. top-end non-custom Selmer sax. That's a $6700 horn at WWBW. The appraisal was for $7K to $9K. Currently, the highest price on eBay for a sold SBA alto is $6500. So, he's playing a bit fast and loose with numbers. Not terrible for the low end, mind you, but this is how you start overvaluing the horns and that makes everyone losers.

Comments on the video:
The appraiser had a bunch of things that were just wrong, like there are only soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone saxophones. I also might be able to accept that alto and tenor are the most used saxophones in jazz, but I'd have to do a bunch more research to even want to mention that in public. It's also a "Super Action" horn, not a "Super Balanced Action." We call them SBAs so you don't get confused with the Selmer Super Series or Super Action horns. Hey, they got it right on one of your affiliated websites. Any 5-digit Selmer is from the "golden age of [Selmer] saxophones"? First, Selmer, themselves, would disagree with that and you've just added the New Largebore, Selmer Super Series, Balanced Action, Super Action, and Mark VI into your list of "best" Selmers -- or is 10,000 not a 5-digit number? How many years does that span? 34? You've got 34 years of "best"? There were what, 5 iterations of the Selmer Super Series, so you're saying that 9 models were "best"? Do you know the definition of "best"? I also know that there are people that'd disagree with you that the Mark VI is the best sax ever made -- or even the best Selmer model. You'll also get an argument that the SBA isn't the best Selmer next to the Mark VI.

Dude's a violin appraiser, not a woodwinds guy. He didn't mention this.

Again, this video hurt.
 

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
Yup.

Comments on Steve's comments:
I know I've talked about insurance cost vs. actual amount someone would pay for it. In the case of this SBA, if you were to replace it with a modern equivalent, you could argue for the Super 80 Serie III in lacquer finish, i.e. top-end non-custom Selmer sax. That's a $6700 horn at WWBW. The appraisal was for $7K to $9K. Currently, the highest price on eBay for a sold SBA alto is $6500. So, he's playing a bit fast and loose with numbers. Not terrible for the low end, mind you, but this is how you start overvaluing the horns and that makes everyone losers.
Yes $6700 WWBW price .. or more like Street Price as I like to call it (I haven't checked lately, but I call this 1 item wholesale + 10%)
which also lists it at retail of $9,904.


though the page is odd

as it lists the high end of $16k/$24k
saxcost.jpg

EDIT: ahh .. the Gold plated version costs WWBW of $16k and retail of $24k .. that better be 24k GOLD.
 
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pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
The "list price" number is something I feel is completely made up. I've been researching Yanagisawa. On their UK website they list list prices. I went to another UK dealer that also had list prices that were much higher than what Yani, themselves, put out.
 

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
The "list price" number is something I feel is completely made up. I've been researching Yanagisawa. On their UK website they list list prices. I went to another UK dealer that also had list prices that were much higher than what Yani, themselves, put out.
Are you also researching taxes, tariffs and import duties of the various countries you are researching ?
or special distribution costs ?
Do those prices include VAT, etc ?

Why doesn't a gallon of milk cost $2.50 across all regions of the US, in all stores for all varieties?
Why is gas prices in Crested Butte, Colorado 30 cents more per gallon in Gunnison which is only 30 miles away.

Why are retail prices in Canada for something much less than in the US if you buy those products with the US dollar vs the Canadian Loonie?

Or a $28k Jeep for $80k in Brazil => http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...ulous-80000-jeep-grand-cherokee/#eb808742d914

There's so much more to it than a "retail" price. Just taxes and import duties for one.
taxes & import duties ==> http://www.investopedia.com/financi...s-have-different-prices-around-the-world.aspx

here is what I assume is a partial list of VATS==> http://www.uscib.org/valueadded-taxes-vat-ud-1676/

if you want more detail, and much more confusion ==> https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles15_e.pdf


NAFTA - free trade zone, eliminates import duties for certain things.
If you don't trade nicely the US will impose a heavy Tariff on certain imported items, making them much more $ .. other countries do it too. Just think of the Steel trade ==> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...inds-china-steel-subsidies-of-as-much-as-236-

So there's plenty of reasons why the "retail" price of something is different from one place to another.
This ASSUMES the retail seller is bound by the "retail" pricing that is provided from the manufacturer excluding all other exclusions & taxes.

Essentially think - the more local a product is manufactured and sold the more stable the price is. As you add more logistics to the distribution, especially overseas the prices jump.

Also, when looking at overseas items one price may include VATs etc, and another advertised price might not.

If you want that NEW product from JAPAN tomorrow you can pay for over night shipping, which someone may provide free shipping but a higher price. "FREE SHIPPING" is an enticement that may not actually be free but advertised as free.

In cameras you can buy a camera body for retail, but get that same camera body for the same price with freebies added in. The retailer has to keep it at a certain minimum internet price, but that doesn't mean they can't add free stuff which actually lowers the "price" of the camera body by the amount of cost of the "free stuff", without actually breaking the contract with the manufacturer.
 
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Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
Why are retail prices in Canada for something much less than in the US if you buy those products with the US dollar vs the Canadian Loonie?
I'm not sure what products you might be referring to, but my--and most Canadians--experience has been the prices in the US for most products is less in the US than here. That's why the crazy-ass long lineups at the border on weekends even when our dollar is at $.85 compared to the Greenback. However, once it starts to dip below $.80, and now when it's hovering below $.75, there are no border lineups. That gives you a pretty good idea of how much cheaper your prices are compared to ours. Approx. 20 to 25%--or sometimes more--on most items.

================================================

That aside, getting back to the discussion of the alto on the PBS video, Pete, I agree with you. There were so many things that I thought were wrong with the "appraisal", that I didn't even want to try and capture them all in a post. Thanks, you noted the ones that bugged me, and even found stuff that I hadn't noticed.

There is something though, that I was wondering about when it comes to insurable value, and replacement cost. This is especially interesting to me ATM, since my homeowners policy is due in the mail any day now.

Since all but 1 of my horns are vintage, and none are made anymore, I don't see how say my main tenor--a 1950 Zephyr--could be replaced by anything other than another vintage Zephyr. And as far as my Mark VIs are concerned, again, why would they be replaced by anything other than Mark VIs? Same with my Buescher bass. Etc. Etc.

All my horns were handpicked by me for a particular sound. I'm not going to replace them with horn X of the same brand, or Brand X of the same voice, just because it's the "same" in value. This is something I did speak to my insurance agent about years ago, but perhaps I need to revisit this just to get some clarification for peace of mind--since I can't remember now what was said about replacements in the event of loss.
 

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
I'm not sure what products you might be referring to, but my--and most Canadians--experience has been the prices in the US for most products is less in the US than here. That's why the crazy-ass long lineups at the border on weekends even when our dollar is at $.85 compared to the Greenback. However, once it starts to dip below $.80, and now when it's hovering below $.75, there are no border lineups. That gives you a pretty good idea of how much cheaper your prices are compared to ours. Approx. 20 to 25%--or sometimes more--on most items.

================================================
I know the flow varies with the exchange rate,
but there's always a long line during the weekend of Ontario plates getting off the highway to go to Costco/Sams Club here when I noticed a few years ago. ==> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ailers-have-us-feeling-gouged/article8288524/
==> http://www.canadianbusiness.com/economy/8-things-that-cost-more-in-canada-and-why-that-is/
for the above link from CanadianBUsiness click on the small picture strip to see a blowout of that particular type of item and you'll see the quick breakdown
CanadianDairy.jpg jeans.jpg

of course, Canadians are just milking us LOL ==> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/bellingham-costco-canadians-cheap-milk_n_1773495.html

But I'm always watching / lusting over a few horns here and there from Canadian stores, musical instruments and cameras, where the exchange rate saves quite a bit of money if you are starting in US dollars and there are no import or brokerage fees during shipment.

Oddly, a few years ago I nearly bought a Selmer Paris cornet from a canadian store. They informed me though that since it was "made in france" that there was an export duty fee attached to it. So ... I guess I can only buy Yamaha or German horns from them. That is one reason why instead of checking out vintage Selmer Paris cornets, I opted for Bach Stradavarius cornet.

The exchange rate does vary a lot from time to time, so the tides do change. About a year ago the canadian dollar was about equal to the US so there was no reason to buy from Canada. And at some point the exchange rate vs higher prices equals itself out.
ExchangeRate.jpg

But those articles do point out why the prices can vary from subsidies, tariffs, taxes, distribution costs, economies of scale. etc. Add exchange rates and it can be a boon or bust for both, one side or no sides of the border.
 
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pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
I'm not sure what products you might be referring to, but my--and most Canadians--experience has been the prices in the US for most products is less in the US than here. That's why the crazy-ass long lineups at the border on weekends even when our dollar is at $.85 compared to the Greenback.
As was my experience in the early 1980s in Plattsburgh, NY, which is close to Montreal. They'd come out to the big mall in Plattsburgh, which had K-Mart as their big anchor store. We got quite a few Canadians coming over to Buffalo, NY, but it was more apparent in Plattsburgh because the town isn't large and there isn't really anything else around. In the Buffalo area, there's Niagara Falls. Canada also has a bazillion taxes on stuff. I mean, beyond just sales tax and taxes on cigarettes and alcohol.

FWIW, I still buy my most expensive headache meds from Canada. This particular pharmacy has a holding company in Florida that takes care of the payment stuff and actually ships the meds from Barbados. I live in Arizona. Ah, the global economy!

Regarding your vintage horns, I dunno. The Zeph you have were produced during the Super 20 era, so that wasn't the top-of-the-line from HN White -- a company that hasn't existed for years. I dunno if you'd want to insure for just the market value -- which is around $1500, max, going by recent eBay sold ads (average is a lot less). The VIs? Easy. Reference 54 :). Bass? Aren't those Chinese horns copies of Conns and Bueschers? /Me: runs from thread
 

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
Bass? Aren't those Chinese horns copies of Conns and Bueschers? /Me: runs from thread
Yup fast my friend... Run fast... ;)

Speaking of Chinese copies... I met a sax player in Vancouver last week who actually owns one of those Jinyin-made, vintage American-style bass saxophones. Image that! He bought it on the local Craigs List for $1800 Cdn! Huh! Wonder where it came from?

In any event, he's owned it for about a year, and since he's not playing it, he is thinking of selling it. But before he does, I'm getting together with him so that I can try it out. This way I can compare/contrast my Buescher to this sax that he says is "built like a tank". I find that a bit difficult to believe, since everything I've heard about them--including from the designer--is that they're not.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
And I think there's the real problem. The Chinese horns are copies, but not good copies. Yani and Yamaha are copies, bu they're really good copies.
 

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
The "list price" number is something I feel is completely made up. I've been researching Yanagisawa. On their UK website they list list prices. I went to another UK dealer that also had list prices that were much higher than what Yani, themselves, put out.
FYI, for UK
Notes on duty & taxes rates and compliance


  • Saxophone has an import duty rate of 3.2% and a VAT rate of 20% (which is based on the total cost to arrive at their operations which includes shipping, brokerage fees, etc).
Notes on import taxes due


  • Please note that your shipping provider may add an additional handling fee

Of course this excludes any additional fees tacked on to it to get it there. Shipping fees to the UK are higher than California, for example, or to South Korea. All originating from Japan. Japan being an island, the shipping has to originate from boat or plane.
Also this excludes any other tariffs and things where the UK may think it's undercutting a local industry, called dumping. See a previous example of the US Steel industry and the penalties against (256% ?) the China steel imports. It balances out the "wholesale" cost in the US of the product.

A reseller has lower logistics costs ordering a sax from France as it all can be handled via Railroad
Of course, if B&H was still making saxes, the logistic costs would be close to minimal or none if they could drive there and pick it up themselves.

So a reseller either absorbs the total cost of shipping, fees, currency valuations, etc and keeps the "retail" price the same as is suggested or they raise the retail price as appropriate.

On the opposite side. The manufacturer could absorb all those costs from their warehouse door to the retailer's door. Which would vary their entire cost structure as each horn then would be different and they would probably have to raise all their prices in order to subsidize inequalities of the logistics involved. Yuck ... or just let the retail price float based on all the logistics costs.

Each country (and location within that country) is different.
Plus your wholesale cost is different whether you order 1, 25 or 100 of a product.
 
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Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
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