Pete's 1st Time eBay Experience

I read something on the art of the scam awhile back -- I think I mentioned that I read a lot -- that says that to have an effective scam, the mark has to be able to think he's taking advantage of you. In an informal survey, I think that's very true.

An easy way to find out if you are one of these folks is to ask yourself,

If I came across a person that was selling a minty $expensive_fabulous_instrument for $100, would I tell the person what it's really worth or just buy it and run?

That's essentially what the classic 419 scams are working on: dude wants to pay me 5 times my asking price? Sign me up!

Remember that caveat emptor has an opposite: caveat venator. Well, if I'm remembering my high school Latin correctly ....
 
Thanks for sharing Pete, lol.

anyway, speaking of quinntheeskimo, I suspect he probably sorts past those scams things so fast he doesn't even notice much about them other than they're just scams.

I also remember the venom passed quinn's way a number of years ago on SOTW for no other crime than having quite a few nice horns to sell. As I recall, he was hit with accusations of hoarding (or something) by a couple of frightened little vintage enthusiasts who seemed to still reguard it as a point of fairness that they ought to be able to buy a minty Mark VI for $650. How dare he sell to the person who offered him the best proposition!

Of course, after the whole recession thing pretty much every vintage piece without a Selmer Paris logo on it lost considerable value. And I do recall that he carried a lot of non-Selmers. Several months ago, he had a Yani B880 that was a little rough cosmetically, but nothing horrible, that he has listed BIN for like $1800 or something. He said, iIRC, that it ws in playable condition and no one bought it. 2002-2004-ish, that horn from a guy like quinn would have gotten $2500 fairly easily. Around that same time, I was looking at a deal on an old Dolnet Bari for $2000 that I thought was a good one!

I really wish I would have had $1800 for that B880...
 
I should check to see if that guy that was trying to sell a VI tenor for $25,000 got any bids.

I remember a thread that Quinn and I were posting in and he was insisting that some horn was worth some $ amount. I disagreed; he was overvaluing it. I seem to remember that he didn't get what he wanted. However, the volume of stuff he has/had probably made him a good deal of $.

I was also right about the Conns, particularly the New Wonders, being quite overvalued. We're seeing that today. It's also an exceptional market if you're a buyer. Might be a couple more years of that, too.

Quinn's got one really good thing going for him on eBay: he's got an extremely high rating. That generally also means that people would pay more attention to his auctions because they know that he's accurately describing his horns and people like his eBay practices. I just hope he changes his passwords every month so someone doesn't hijack his account.
 
yeah, overvaluing happens. It's a pretty hard temptation to resist when you have some high end stuff like quinn and quinn himself probably supports much of his overall livelyhood off of his ebay sales.

I have never heard a complaint about quinn's honesty.


really, though, when you have something special and your business is otherwise good, it pays to set your price and wait. Contrast this to many on the SOTW market: Apparently, so many are driven by GAS for new and different stuff that they shed their old stuff rather desperately. You can see it in the ads too -it's the ones where they bump and drop price every few days.

It can take weeks or months to sell a horn.
 
I'm selling my first "overhauled" project horn as we speak for a relatively competitive price (or so I thought, I'm a no0b), it's a '64 Normandy 8 clarinet and so far no luck. I'm not expecting to sell it in 6 days, I'm expecting at least two weeks, and I want the highest price I can get for it, it doesn't have to be 8k or anything, as long as I can get over $100. It's a student instrument.
I have the starting bid at $379 and still, nothing. It's been up for four days. I'm wondering it I'm just asking way too much one way or another, but like JfW said, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes much longer.
 
PrincessJ said:
I have the starting bid at $379 and still, nothing. It's been up for four days. I'm wondering it I'm just asking way too much one way or another, but like JfW said, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes much longer.
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You're addressing the eternal question whether or not to overhaul/refurbish/whatever an instrument prior to selling. Some say you'll never recoup the cost, some say it'll have a multiplicator effect (investing $10 more will get a $20 better price), I think it's somewhere in between.

For an instrument of this caliber (price and target audience) I'd have to toss in a new swab, a new pot of cork grease, two reeds (buyer may choose strength) and a lot of buzzwords the parent or uncle is likely to recognize from staring into other virtual shops' windows ("Tunes to A=442" or "Boehm System with 17 keys and 6 rings" and stuff like that).

A silver-plated Noblet Artist would typically go for $250 here, in refurbished and ready-to-play condition...
 
Ahaaaa. Thanks for the quick reply, Tux.
So I paid literally $20 for this thing, it wasn't in bad shape, and I did the whole overhaul myself which didn't cost a terrible amount (and I made it play pretty nicely)... but what about those guys that are asking $500 for the same thing except in non-playing condition? Good luck with that.
 
Our Swiss correspondent pointed out a number of techniques that most eBay sellers are already taking into account. Selling on eBay is less about the item and more about the presentation.

We have all laughed at ads that have statements in them like "I'm no musician but..." and "Some of the silver things have fallen off but are in the box" and "A real collector's item/antique clarinet". This stuff sounds stupid to us, but they resonate with your average non-specialist purchaser. They "tell" them that they may be getting a bargain from a non-specialist ("I'm no musician but..." and "A real collector's item/antique clarinet"), and at least attract enough attention to the item to merit a full viewing and perhaps even a bid.

All of those flashing bars and stars are another technique. Half the battle on eBay or in sales in general is getting the attention of the potential buyer. Bright and flashy gets the attention of some, as does sound (that annoying music that some sellers use turns me off, but it is a valid sales technique.

There's even one eBay seller who uses an attractive young model to "display" all of his camera auctions.

I think that eBay offers the occasional webinar covering the topic. Don't know about the scheduling, though.
 
tictactux said:
You're addressing the eternal question whether or not to overhaul/refurbish/whatever an instrument prior to selling. Some say you'll never recoup the cost, some say it'll have a multiplicator effect (investing $10 more will get a $20 better price), I think it's somewhere in between.

For an instrument of this caliber (price and target audience) I'd have to toss in a new swab, a new pot of cork grease, two reeds (buyer may choose strength) and a lot of buzzwords the parent or uncle is likely to recognize from staring into other virtual shops' windows ("Tunes to A=442" or "Boehm System with 17 keys and 6 rings" and stuff like that).

A silver-plated Noblet Artist would typically go for $250 here, in refurbished and ready-to-play condition...
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i think it depends upon who you have do the work. If you yourself do the fixing and it's currently in an unplayable state, then it could profit. If you have a professional do the work at a much higher $$ then it probably won't return higher profits.
 
I've never sold an instrument on ebay, and from everything I've seen don't ever plan on doing so.

Terry's right, of course in that pictures and presentation are sometimes more than 50% of the end price. However, i've noticed that on eBay, instruments advertized as "overhauled" have a very low premium over those that have no such thing said. In that the basic conventional wisdom of SOtW prevails: "always assume an ebay horn will require an overhaul, reguardless." There have been many cases on SOtW where horns listed as "overhauled" were bought needing still hundreds of dollars worth of work.

Nevertheless, it looks like Princess could make some dough off it on eBay, but $379 is significanly above the top of the market for those things.

http://cgi.ebay.com/French-Made-Nor...514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb37d2412

there is a comleted listing at $315 for a French Normandy, the highest i could find. Its from a somewhat established seller who seems to have a lot of bragging points. There are few of these that go above $200, all from established sellers. Reputation seems to be everything as there's a lot of these Normandy's going for around $100 and under.
 
i've had "overhauled" eBay clarinets come to me from the owner after being bought simply for another complete overhaul.

it's amazing some sellers (from reading on other forums) as they try to find cheaper and cheaper pads/supplies to put "new" stuff on an instrument to sell it.
 
My take on "overhauled" is that if it's a professional model, it shouldn't be overhauled. Except in very, very rare cases. Why? Because it's possible a professional will buy it and he wants his own set-up. You're not giving him any value.

Here's one of those rare cases that I described a few years back on SOTW. I'm going to omit most pricing because those rates have most probably changed:

Say you find a pro horn that's in baaaad shape. The example I used was a Buescher "Big B" Aristocrat alto that was missing 99% of its lacquer and had the bell pushed into the bell-to-body brace, but the horn, itself, isn't missing any parts. Purchase price is WELL under $100. Let's call that price $P.

The first thing I do is check to see how much a minty version of that horn is worth. Let's call that $W.

Then find a repairman who will do a good job on a total overhaul. Let's call that $R.

Before the repairman does the overhaul, call up Andersen plating and find out how much it'd cost for a silver plate and re-engrave. Let's call that $A.

Math time: if $P+$R+$A > $W, then you shouldn't even bother. If $P+$R+$A < $W (and, when I did this example the first time, it was significantly < $W), you've got a winner. Do the overhaul. You'll also get quite a few looks because a replated horn looks mighty fine.

Today, I dunno if this would be the thing to do NOW because prices are rather low. I COULD buy a junker and get it all overhauled for < $W, but there may be a cheaper alternative out there that's better. Hey, get a "Big B" overhauled or buy a fairly minty Yamaha 575? Hmmm.
 
Sold! Buyer has 203 feedback items, all positive, so I hope this is the end of my eBay saga.
 
my observations conclude that pro horns + overhaul almost always exceeds even it's retail value.

There are exceptions, but they are rare and most of the time involve some risk. But really, a "playing condition" service is probably the most bang for your yen.

i've posted this a while back that I saw a garage-worn TH&C tenor with 0% lacquer go BIN for $200. It was consistently patina's and some people really go for that. No dents, no case, but it was fantastic looking. For $200 there was a lot of money to be made if, just if the rods aren't all frozen and screws rusted through. Even if it was in such sore condition, you were still looking at probably a thousand dollar profit.

I would have left the patina intact, polished the ring and the raised lettering, and re-plated the nortons.

....for want of a day and $200.
 
I kinda go back and forth. For instance, there's a Keilwerth Modell Peter Ponzol mentioned in another thread. High-level pro horn being sold by a respected eBay'er (quinntheeskimo) and at a decent price ($1650), even if it needs all new pads. Additionally, in my example of that Buescher, let's say that it's perfect after $1500 repair and the initial cost of $100. Is a $1600 Buescher Aristocrat "Big B" alto a better horn than, say, an intermediate model modern horn? Possibly.

==============

Back to my eBay experiences. So far, I've gotten several e-mails from the buyer thru eBay and, most importantly, I got PayPal'ed almost immediately after the auction was done. Again, more positive signs. I really can't express that amount of relief I feel from that. But signs weren't looking good before she won: I got a bid from another scammer, who had bid on about a dozen similar ads and I had one bid that was retracted. This doesn't count the additional dozen e-mails in the form of the ones I mentioned on 03-13-2011 08:07 PM and the couple I got through eBay in the form of, "If you end your auction now, I'll pay you $250. You'll save the eBay fees ...."

Anyhow, the profits from my last calendar project, this eBay ad and the trade-in of an old laptop have paid for the iPad that my wife now monopolizes and a new desk chair (it'll be here in a couple days).
 
Conrats on a deal that is looking legit now. hopefully, they give you that first bit of feedback!

I kinda go back and forth. For instance, there's a Keilwerth Modell Peter Ponzol mentioned in another thread. High-level pro horn being sold by a respected eBay'er (quinntheeskimo) and at a decent price ($1650), even if it needs all new pads. Additionally, in my example of that Buescher, let's say that it's perfect after $1500 repair and the initial cost of $100. Is a $1600 Buescher Aristocrat "Big B" alto a better horn than, say, an intermediate model modern horn? Possibly.
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Better? quite possibly, though the horn is always in the mouth of the beholder.

;)

$100 for a Big B? Even in poor condition that would be a deal i would take all day. Trouble is, where are you going to find such an instrument for that cheap? And also, you are highly unlikely to find much profit in a $1600 Big B Alto these days, and these horns usually go for $500 in crap condition.

One thing I have noticed about instruments is that there are a lot of naive sellers that believe they have a lot of value in them even if they are beat-to-hell student models. If it looks "antiquish" like old Bueschers do, they think they have a goldmine!
 
JfW said:
Conrats on a deal that is looking legit now. hopefully, they give you that first bit of feedback!
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I was informed of another eBay scam, yesterday:

* Scammer buys item.
* Seller ships item.
* Scammer receives item and says it's damaged -- and either goes after the seller or the shipping company.

*Double sigh* If it can be scammed, it will be.

=========

$100 for a Big B? Even in poor condition that would be a deal i would take all day. Trouble is, where are you going to find such an instrument for that cheap? And also, you are highly unlikely to find much profit in a $1600 Big B Alto these days, and these horns usually go for $500 in crap condition.
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While most of the numbers used in my example are mostly made up, the horn did exist. It was on eBay and came into my possession for a brief time. It really was sub-$100.

==========

The "profit" thing is something else to consider.

A real player might look on eBay, find a horn that's like that Buescher, get it all fixed up and play it himself -- and throw a party with all the cash he's saved over a new pro whatever. A person using eBay to make profit probably would have a problem. At least, in this market. Very shortly after I had noted that Conn New Wonders were priced way too high and the bubble on those horns would pop, it did. I feel a little sorry for the folks that bought not-quite-minty New Wonders for $1500. Just a little, though. I think it's incredibly difficult to do what folks like Quinntheeskimo do: buy a horn for a little cash, do a little fix-up and make a profit. Especially in this day-and-age. I've mentioned this before: buying a horn because you think it's gonna increase in value is a bad idea. Buying a horn for cheap and getting it fixed up and playing better than a new one CAN be a good idea. If you know what you're doing.

One thing I have noticed about instruments is that there are a lot of naive sellers that believe they have a lot of value in them even if they are beat-to-hell student models. If it looks "antiquish" like old Bueschers do, they think they have a goldmine!
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I mentioned something about an AE Sax horn being sold for $6500, today. I also mentioned something awhile ago to the effect of, 1971 Challenger is vintage. A 1971 Pinto is just old. You see this misconception all the time on shows like Antiques Roadshow, Oddities and Auction Kings.
 
As a coda, I got this in my e-mail, tonight (see attachment).

Mmmm. Yah.

I've gotta remember that I've gotta wrap up this thread. I've got it on my somewhat shrinking to-do list.
 
The Revenge Of.

I had, this past week, four items on eBay:

* Wacom Pen & Touch tablet.
* My original iPad 32gb WiFi.
* An 8-person German-made China set
* An 8-person (something like that) silver-plated silverware set

I had a little bump in the road on the first one: I had a good bidder, but then got an e-mail from him saying he was in Canada and I specified, "Ships to continental US only." He asked me to cancel his bid. I did. I then got an e-mail from someone wanting me to send to Brazil. Um. No. However, it did sell to a person with some positive feedback, so happy +1. No payment, yet, but it is a Sunday.

The iPad. With 4 hours to go, I had one bidder. He had positive feedback too, so, again a +1. He didn't win it, though. Someone else did. Someone with no feedback and has been a member since last month. He then sent me this through eBay:

like that the receiver's name is mr. [famous baseball player's name] with the same address data. thanks

payment already made ​​so if you want to sent the email receipt ... give me your email and I do it with pleasure ..

Note: Please note that the order on behalf of Mr. [not the buyer's last name]. [famous baseball player's name] for the welcome eternally
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Um. Yeah. Happy -5,623.

However, 5 minutes after said e-mail, I got the confirmation e-mail of payment received through PayPal. I then went to the PayPal website to confirm. It says: "Completed - Funds not yet available." That made me feel a little uneasy ... until I found this in the PayPal FAQ:

Funds Availability is when we delay the availability of funds for a specified amount of time – usually 21 days or less. This is a common industry practice that we implement to help ensure a safe environment for both buyers and sellers.

By delaying the availability of funds, we can help make sure there is money in your account to resolve any problems with your orders, if they arise. The money still belongs to you. It’s just unavailable for withdrawal temporarily until we are sure your buyer received the item they ordered in the condition promised.
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So, my happy raised by 5,623.

The silver and China didn't sell. My wife set the prices on those and I said that I thought that they were somewhat high. Yes, I did see the eBay ad that had a single minty plate that was the same age and manufacturer for $25. I'll also note that it didn't sell. Something I've mentioned quite often: you look at closed eBay ads that sell to determine value ....
 
Well ....

I shipped the iPad today. One thing I can say is that I will no longer trust eBay's shipping app. It said shipping was going to be all of $9 for USPS Priority. It was off by $21 :(

The "new" thing at eBay, or, at least, the new thing since I last sold something, is that people that haven't sold much stuff and/or don't have much feedback have to make sure they have a tracking number either through eBay's own tracking label print-out page or by getting a tracking # and entering it manually on both the eBay and PayPal websites. See also that "funds availability" note I posted in my last post.

FWIW, I don't really mind the "funds availability" thing because I understand that it's another level to stop scammers, i.e. buyer's obviously paid, but there's no guarantee that the seller's actually sold anything, so PayPal holds the funds just in case nothing gets sent, so they can stomp on the scammer and pay back the buyer. I do just wish that eBay/PayPal was a bit more up-front in mentioning that. It's not in the "quick-start" guide. It may be in one of the FAQs or in some tiny text somewhere.
 
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