Playing too loud

Richard Seaman

How does one resolve an issue where the conductor is always telling me to play softer, even during solo or soli parts of the music. I play in a community concert band of thirty players sitting in first chair, first clarinet. I have told him that I am sitting too close to him and that there needs to be more space between the flutes to his right and the clarinets to his left. He has it set up so close that on occasion he bumps my music stand with his left hand while conducting. I told him that there should be about six feet to his left and right but he will not move anything. We practice in a room with a tile floor, so he brought in a piece of carpet to put under my stand thinking that this would mute my sound.

I do know how to play softly, however certain notes sound loud, namely C,D & E6 no matter how soft I try to play them.

The one solution I am considering is to find another band to play in, which is no problem since we have over a dozen community groups in the area.

Richard
 
Your conductor sounds like he has issues if he isn't standing centered. Ideally he should be centered on stage as should the band. 6-10 feet is normal. You are WAY WAY too close. If he doesn't move himself, then I say go to another ensemble. Honestly, this is the first time I've heard of a conductor not standing dead center in the ensemble. It must look horrendous from an audience perspective, and it is certainly no way to hear proper balance from the band. Best of luck with all of this.
 
Conductor centered

The conductor is centered, however he just has the first row of players too close on the left and the right and refuses to move us.
 
I don't know if my comment matters, but I've found that most horns sound louder to others alongside or directly in front of it than it does to the player. I've stood or sat next to a lot of horns in my day and when I'm alongside other horns, they often sound very loud to me, even if the player is not pushing it.

When I sit out in the audience and listen to the same player, the horn doesn't sound especially loud (strong, maybe - but that is different) and the horn blends nicely with the ensemble.

Same with my horns - I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to old jass music and others in the ensemble or sitting directly in front of me in the audience have sometimes claimed my horn is as loud as Bechet's. I seriously doubt that, because I've listened to myself on various recordings.

I think it may be a matter of proximity - and I think maybe it isn't you. DAVE
 
Two thangs:

1. The director should be assumed right in most cases and you should do what she/he sez.

2. If I don't like a director's feel for things I go to another band.

I had a director telling me I played way to loud on lead tenor no less. (my alto and bari are easier to get much louder than tenor for me). He was trying to fix a nasty issue with a Big Band playing in a gymnasium. I was so pissed I faked playing, not playing a single note.

Then I asked him how it went and he said it would be nice if I could play just a little quieter. Now understand, I respect and like this director. But I was as I said pissed. So I told him in front of others I wasn't even playing. He looked at me unbelieving and I add for emphasis NOT A NOTE.

Not a nice thing to do to anyone. But sometimes you have to make a statement. Um... yes we're still friends.
 
I am mostly a self taught musician and most of my experience came from playing in a working local big band in Dayton, Ohio. Mostly we played for dances and playing full volume was expected. During rock tunes at the end of the night, 'blastissimo' volume might even come into play.

Now I live in northern New York and play pretty much only in a community band and the director is an absolute volume nazi...

She has told me in rehearsals that I am too loud...called me twice at home after rehearsals telling me that I play too loud...once told me during rehearsal to 'put a sock in it'.

And I don't feel like I am playing anywhere near at the volume level that I played at in the big band.

I do my best to try to be conscientious about volume but it is a constant struggle and frustration for me.

The community band is really the most convenient playing venue in the area (without driving an hour or so) and I don't want to give up playing so I just deal with it as the problems arise...
 
Playing "good ensemble" means that your instrument blends and becomes part of the sound of the group without sticking out. The conductor standing in front of the group is in the best position to evaluate the overall sound and it is his/her job to help the balance and blend of the ensemble. I have spent years on both sides of the conductor's podium and know how challenging it is to work with individual players to mold the sound of a group.

Sometimes an individual's sound "sticking out" has nothing to do with the volume. A harsh or edgy tone that lacks focus can stick out even when the dynamic level matches the others in the section. A good musician is expected to be able to blend and match the sound within the section he/she plays in as well as play any note at any dynamic level.

In my teaching I used to instruct students that if they can hear the person on both sides of them in the band louder than they can hear themselves, they are playing good ensemble. That said, you might graciously suggest that the conductor listen to the group from the back of the room to see if your part is still too loud. That should decide the proximity issue once and for all if both of you are reasonable individuals.

John
 
The conductor of our community band finally got a hearing aid.
I asked him, "What kind is it?"
He answered, "I think it's about seven o'clock."
 
tharruff said:
I am mostly a self taught musician and most of my experience came from playing in a working local big band in Dayton, Ohio. Mostly we played for dances and playing full volume was expected. During rock tunes at the end of the night, 'blastissimo' volume might even come into play.

Now I live in northern New York and play pretty much only in a community band and the director is an absolute volume nazi...

She has told me in rehearsals that I am too loud...called me twice at home after rehearsals telling me that I play too loud...once told me during rehearsal to 'put a sock in it'.

And I don't feel like I am playing anywhere near at the volume level that I played at in the big band.

I do my best to try to be conscientious about volume but it is a constant struggle and frustration for me.

The community band is really the most convenient playing venue in the area (without driving an hour or so) and I don't want to give up playing so I just deal with it as the problems arise...
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I'm pretty much an amateur hack, but I do have a lot of community band experience. One thing I have noticed, particularly with sax players coming from a primarily pop or jazz orientation is that they sometimes use the same mpc for concert band that they have used in these other settings, and sometimes it just doesn't make for a good blend. Might not be as much a volume problem as it is a sound quality issue. Now, of course, top notch players can often get whatever sound they need from most any mpc, but me---no way. I use a different mpc for concert band than I do for big band. And sometimes switch off depending on the style of music concert band is doing, and whether or not we are out of doors or inside.

Just something to think about.

Ruth
 
Funny you should say that, I've used an Otto Link STM 5* on tenor for years in concert band with no trouble. Nowadays I use a vintage Tone Edge, but I'll still pull the small tip STM out for some stuff. I had used a Meyer 5m on alto up until about a year ago, and now I use a Selmer s90 190.

He said he's a clarinet player though, I just find it hard to believe that one clarinet can realistically cut through a wind ensemble. I know his predicament with the conductor, but dear lord. That's a littler overkill. The conductor really needs to go out at audience distance and rejudge from there.
 
saxplayer1004 said:
Funny you should say that, I've used an Otto Link STM 5* on tenor for years in concert band with no trouble. Nowadays I use a vintage Tone Edge, but I'll still pull the small tip STM out for some stuff. I had used a Meyer 5m on alto up until about a year ago, and now I use a Selmer s90 190.

He said he's a clarinet player though, I just find it hard to believe that one clarinet can realistically cut through a wind ensemble. I know his predicament with the conductor, but dear lord. That's a littler overkill. The conductor really needs to go out at audience distance and rejudge from there.
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Yeah, I don't disagree at all with your comments to the OP. I was thinking more about Tharuff when I posted that response about mpc. I'm assuming he's on sax.
 
touche. My band director in high school gave me hell all the time about playing too loud *lead tenor in a big band*. That was me playing ~mp in the F sections. The problem was he was using clarinets to cover the trumpet parts, and the rest of the sax section was wimping out volume wise, so the band sounded weak. Granted I despise this director and have never had an ounce of respect for him, but it got to the point where I told him that the band was worthless and he was a worthless director who needed to go back to elementary school. He proceeded to tell me I was never going anywhere. I then had time to play in the pit for Hairspray which was a professional off-broadway touring company. I was a junior at the time.

This was all big band work, not wind ensemble, so wind ensemble obviously has more problems with volume, especially from saxes, but for tharruff, you may want to consider getting a smaller top opening with a lower baffle to dull your sound up. I know it won't feel right or sound like "you" but if it means you can stay in the band and get a long better with the director it may be worth it.
 
AltoRuth said:
One thing I have noticed, particularly with sax players coming from a primarily pop or jazz orientation is that they sometimes use the same mpc for concert band that they have used in these other settings, and sometimes it just doesn't make for a good blend. Might not be as much a volume problem as it is a sound quality issue.
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This is so true for amateur players. I have been known to harass a player until they move from their 'cool' but dirty sounding metal mouthpiece to a plubber (taint just plastic nor rubber) piece like a Meyer, Selmer, etc. And I have a strobe tuner that I'll have them run a scale on if they don't believe me. (Thanks Steve). The really newbies get the long tone & instructor message from me repeatedly until they come up to spec or leave. :cool:
saxplayer1004 said:
touche. My band director in high school gave me hell all the time about playing too loud *lead tenor in a big band*. That was me playing ~mp in the F sections.
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I was surprised to learn when I became the lead tenor in some big bands how quietly the lead tenor usually is called upon to play in sax soli work. That's because, according to my many instructors, unless the tenor is unison with the lead alto, the tenor will usally have the wacky part of the cord structure.
 
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I play playing an improv solo at the time. I know lead tenor has to back off during soli stuff, and I have no problem with that, but he was telling us to play soft to the point where sound quality was all but non existent. Take the A train is the piece we were playing when I got up and left. Tenor solo through the whole thing, and it supposed to be relatively quiet through most of it, but it has solo stuff when you are stop timing with the band or have to play over the band in low register. I could hear both the tenor 2 player to my right and lead alto to my left with no problem, could hear the bass clarinet behind me, and rhythm section was heard what little there was to hear. The dynamics in that band were non existant, anytime the band as a whole got above piano he told everyone to back down and play quieter. He then threw a Stan Kenton ballad in, that was mf-FFF through the whole piece and wouldn't let us play above piano. I honest to God was playing quietly to the point that my sound was 90% air and 10% note and he was still telling me to play quieter. I've played 3 times that loud in p sections in musicals. I do a lot of pit work so I appreciate how the music has to stay quiet, especially since I act as well, so I get it from both ends, but this was dynamics to the max.

You can't expect 5 clarinets and 1 trumpet to do the work of a trumpet section, and then have a bass clarinet playing lead trombone and a euphonium playing bass trombone. There were 2 brass players in said band, one playing 4th trumpet, the other playing 3rd trombone. It was bad from the get go, oh, and no guitars or bass, just piano and drums. He wouldn't allow the guitar or bass players to play in the band.

He has since been fired for having band participation drop by more than half. Marching band went from a well respected 130 my junior year, to 30 my senior year, and concert band went from 80ish to a bit more than 20. Kicker was my junior and senior year we sent 12 kids to all states and 4 of us went to BofA nationals. Since then, they haven't sent any.
 
Interesting comments by everyone, especially the comments regarding tenor sax, which I also play.

You will recall that I am playing clarinet in this band, which is made up of five flutes, one oboe, six clarinets, four saxes, two tubas, seven trumpets, four trombones, two baritones and three percussion. This is a total of thirty-four players.

The point I was attempting to make and clarify was the physical set-up of the band, with my sitting two feet to the left of the conductor and playing right in his ear. I was interested in what the typical spacing should be from the conductor to the flutes and clarinets.

As a point of information the conductor and I are the same age, seventy-five. I have made the decision to resolve the situation by resigning from the band.
 
Closest I have ever seen was 6 feet and that was in cramped quarters on stage. My normal situations are about 8 feet left to right and 6 feet or so in front if the podium.
 
Gandalfe said:
I have been known to harass a player until they move from their 'cool' but dirty sounding metal mouthpiece to a plubber (taint just plastic nor rubber) piece like a Meyer, Selmer, etc.
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I read about a tenor player whose community band director criticized his choice of a link STM. He was emphatic about it. Too harsh. Didn't blend. Cut through everything.

At the next rehearsal the tenor player had the link carefully dressed in black electrical tape. The director commented on how much better the blend sounded.

Sometimes these guys hear with their eyes.
 
Al Stevens said:
I read about a tenor player whose community band director criticized his choice of a link STM. He was emphatic about it. Too harsh. Didn't blend. Cut through everything.

At the next rehearsal the tenor player had the link carefully dressed in black electrical tape. The director commented on how much better the blend sounded.

Sometimes these guys hear with their eyes.
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It is common knowledge (and universally accepted) that darker mouthpieces cater for a darker tone. Clad yours in fake fur if you also want a warmer sound. :cool:
 
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