RC... PRESTIGE?

gallagher

I've been trying to identify this instrument several times but it's getting difficult. Hopefully you'll help me. I'll also post this thread in the clarinet family forum just for the of case someone who doesn't have a Buffet knows something about what I'm asking.

I'm from Spain and I've been reading several posts about how to identify a clarinet knowing its serial number. So when I told buffet group its serial number they answered: bc1179-2-0.
This is the information I've found:

For a sequence such as BCxxyy(c)-d-e ...............

BC = Buffet Crampon

xx
This specifies the key, with
11 = Bb (old code, SiB=Bb)
12 = A (old code, La=A)
15 = Eb (old code, MiB=Eb)
17 = F

yy
This specifies the model, with
02 = E13
12 = RC
31 = R13
83 = Prestige RC Bass to Eb
93 = Prestige RC Bass to low C
23 = Basset

c
Optional code, meaning
G = greenline
L = Left hand Eb lever

d
Specifies key plating, where
02 = silver
05 = nickle

e
Specifies pitch
0 = 440
2 = 442
4 = 444

for example

BC1131(L)-02-0 equals a Bb (11) R13 (31) with a LH Eb lever (L) with silver plated keys (02) tuned to 440 (0)

Information attributed to Jack Kissinger and Francois Kloc

--------

Now my question: which exact clarinet is a BC1179-2-0
I know it is an RC because it's written on it but when I asked it to Buffet Group they told me it was an old model. Silverplate. It was made in 1991. It also has the Eb key.



So

BC1179-2-0 SILVER PLATE

equals
Bb (11)
don't know about yy because 79 isn't on the list
2 = silverplate
0 = 440



Could you please help me?
 
Don't cross-post (i.e. post the same question in more than one area). We consider it spam and I'll ban you.
 
Since the clarinet has RC on it and Buffet told you it's a 1179 model, then the main possibilities are either that in 1991 79 meant RC or that Buffet made a mistake when they told you 1179. I'm guessing the former is more likely than the latter.

I have a Buffet catalogue from 2009 and the regular RC Bb clarinet in 440 pitch is specified as BC1111 with L hand lever as an option. The same but Prestige is BC 1106L. They must have changed designations since 1191, because the 442 pitch versions (which AFAIK as identical except 1mm shorter barrels) are specified as BC1113 and BC1107L respectively i.e. the pitch is already specified in main four digits and not as an extra digit.

It's also possible that Buffet had somewhat different designation depending on the country the clarinet was going to so maybe this was for a country where there was/is little online presents so little info on it, but that's probably unlikely.
 
You make a good point there. Thanks for your answer here and on the other forum.

I don't think it's possible that Buffet made a mistake when they said 1179 because I asked it to several people from Buffet who were from different countries and they all anwered the same to that question. They weren't so sure about which model it was. Some of them said RC and others specified OLD RC PRESTIGE. When I asked again some people confirmed it was RC and some other people confirmed what they had said before that it was an OLD RC PRESTIGE.

So it's very confusing. That 79 could just be what you say: they've changed the number since 1991, but I think it's unlikely:

I found this information on the forum:

Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : BC 1131
Serial number : 275184
Year of manufacturing : 25/09/1985

Which confirms that RC was 31 in 1985.


So... what about that 79?

There's something else surprising about that clarinet: it also has some keys that I had never seen before on a clarinet. I later knew there were those so called FULL BOEHM clarinets, but it isn't exactly like those since it lacks of one of the lowest keys that you can see in this picture:

http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/RC-F279670.html

There are not 5 keys like in that picture. There are just four keys for the right hand in my clarinet like in standard clarinets: E, F, F# G#.

As I said before in my first post it has de Eb key for the left hand.

But with the exception of that 5th key for the right hand it has all the other keys that show the picture of the other clarinet.


So... 79: RC silverplate ¿FULL? Boehm


Still guessing why Buffet Group says it's an old prestige.
 
OK. Now I know what happened. Should've read all the forum information before starting posting. So, again, my fault.

I understand it's important to control new users.

thank you
 
Unless I missed it, I don't think you mentioned it was a full Boehm or had any extra keys (other than the L Ab/Eb lever)? Now it makes sense that it's neither a regular RC or an RC Prestige. The RC full Boehm probably had its own model number... I'm guessing BC1179 :)

If it doesn't say RC Prestige on the clarinet it's probably an RC full Boehm.
 
Yeah, but I'm not even sure it's a full Boehm since it isn't full actually.

I probably have an RC NOT full Boehm Silverplate.

You're probably right, but then again, why Buffet didn't even mention it? They should know what is the 79 about.
 
Manufacturers don't always know. As an example with Buffet, they had a fire around 1940 and they don't have any serial number information from about 1940 to 1950 (some third-parties have been able to recover some/most of the info) . As an example from the saxophone world, Selmer kinda forgot about a couple models they produced and didn't remember the serial number start date of their most legendary sax, the Mark VI, until Helen (one of our CEs) found an ad with the exact serial number. Hey, a couple other manufacturers point to my websites when someone asks for stuff because they don't have any info, period.

In any case, let's use Occam's Razor: they probably mis-stamped your horn. I'm fairly sure that I saw that the "Model 79" moniker was given to some intermediate horns, so the possibility of mis-stamp is very probable. My general rule of thumb (substituting your horn here) is, "If it looks like a RC Prestige and plays like an RC Prestige, it's an RC Prestige."

I think you could put forth the argument that your horn is special in some way. However, without someone from the manufacturer confirming that or you getting some other documentation, I'd say that the argument is mildly interesting, but unlikely to raise the horn's value.

You might want to ask the folks on Woodwind.org, too. The forum I've linked to is clarinet-only and they do have a lot of specialists there that might have more info. If you get any, please post back here. Increase the knowledge base!
 
Maybe it's not full Boehm but it sounds like it has enough differences to make it a different model number than the standard one.

Pete, when you say "model 79" do you mean as part of the four digit BC model number? That is what it is in this case and it is not the model number or name that is used for advertising etc. It is not model 79 like R13 has 13 in the name.

Gallagher maybe you can post photos here and/or on the clarinet board?
 
> Pete, when you say "model 79" do you mean as part of the four digit BC model number?
It was on eBay, IIRC. It just had "model 79" in the ad.
 
Hi! Sorry for delay. Been really bussy.

Apparently and according to the last Buffet answer I got (last week) the exact model would be: RC X RING.

Does that mean something to you? There's no information on the internet.

Can photos be attached easily? I've just sent the barrel for plattering, so when I get it back, and I hope that's soon, I'll upload those photos.
 
> Does that mean something to you? There's no information on the internet.
I speak the language of the Google (it is a large part of my job, so I'm pretty good). Here's a reference. There's a pic included, but it's what I'd call a full Boehm horn. In any event, the description and pics make me think you've just got an additional bit of keywork on your horn.

===================

The easiest way of uploading some pics is to click on the "Insert Image" button. It's the middle one in this pic:

Capture.PNG

Alternately, you can hit the "Go Advanced" button (lower right corner) and hit the "Attachments" icon. It's the one that looks like this pic:

Capture.PNG
 
It is possible that you have a clarinet with the articulated G#, fork Eb, Eb lever and the G# trill key, but without the low Eb. Such horns were once available, at least from Selmer - I have a 10S model in this configuration.

I also have a metal Selmer with the G# and its trill key and fork Eb, but without the Eb lever. And, a Series 9 horn in A with only the fork Eb. So, almost anything is possible.

Selmer used to sell them in the progression 17/6, 17/7 (the fork Eb), 18/7 (the Eb lever and fork Eb), 19/7 (the articulated G#, Eb lever and fork Eb), and 20/7 (the "full Boehm", adding the low Eb key). They were listed as a series of models in the price list - I don't recall what was in the catalog. And, you could get the same treatment on both Bb and A clarinets. (I never saw any such listings for the C, D and the Eb horns.)

(Their bass clarinets (at least the ones that I bought and used) were provided with the Eb lever and the articulated G#, but no trill key and no fork Eb. All of the modern one came with the low Eb, or range down to low C, in the old days with thumb keys but lately with extended keyboards for the right and left little fingers.)

(I don't recall much about the altos. The basset horns were similar in arrangement to the modern bass clarinets - extended little finger keys, no thumb key

Leblanc did the same, and kept them in the catalog for longer than did Selmer.

I don't recall much about what Buffet did - I never saw either catalog or price list. I tried to get a selection of Buffet horns to try when I was looking to buy my main bass, but their rep laughed me off. (I was in my early 20s at the time, and he probably thought that I didn't have the gelt.) So, as I couldn't abide the Leblanc instruments, my decision was made for me.

By the way, I paid for it in cash...
 
Thanks SOTSDO for your interesting experience! I've learnt a lot reading it.

I guess I won't be able to upload photos until next week at least. But from what you say I see that you really understood which model it is.

It's also interesting your link pete. Of course mine doesn't have that Eb key, but apart from that they're quite similar. Not that aged though.

Would you consider that, as the answer from the link you showed us says, my clarinet would also be a 1991 topline Buffet clarinet?
 
gallagher said:
Would you consider that, as the answer from the link you showed us says, my clarinet would also be a 1991 topline Buffet clarinet?
Click to expand...
"Topline" is a bit murky of a word to define, in today's instrument world. Is the R13 the "topline" or one of the other nine models (not counting the Greenline variants) that Buffet considers their professional horns? Is it the most expensive model offered that's "topline"?

Anyhow, based on the information you've provided and not seeing any pictures to the contrary, it certainly sounds like you've got one of Buffet's older pro clarinets.
 
No doubt R13 and RC are special instruments, as you say it's a personal decision to choose your favourite clarinet. It's always a good thing having many different models to choose.
But it's undeniable that as "topline" nowadays we are refering to Prestige or Tosca clarinets. R13 and RC are obviously PRO, though I've heard some people refer to them as advanced student's instruments. I don't agree with that statement at all. They're really good imo.

I've had an E11 for 19 years and still have it. It's a good instrument. Not comparable in any way to those other Buffets we are talking about. I'd use it occasionally and it'd always work fine, but this RC X RING from 91' is absolutely amazing. That's what made me think Buffet people were probably right when they told me it was an old Prestige or when this other person said it was a topline Buffet clarinet then. Its sound is as good as any Prestige I've heard before.

The fact of it being a not well known old model makes me even more interested in finding information or opinions of you experts about it.
 
gallagher said:
... though I've heard some people refer to them as advanced student's instruments ...
Click to expand...
I've seen at least one comment on this forum regarding older Yamaha pro clarinets being only as good as Yamaha's current intermediate horns. I think it depends on who's doing the playing and what you expect in a professional instrument. Just to reiterate my position, I think that "professional" is supposed to mean, "This is the best we can make." In Buffet's case, I can certainly see one line of horns based on the R13 bore design and another line based on a different bore design as "professional." It's like comparing a Buffet R13 to a Selmer Series 10: different instruments altogether. I think you definitely can argue that a 50 year old R13 isn't as good as a 2013 R13, but I'd bet that you'd have a number of folks on the other side of that argument. The other half of this argument is that can't say that one pro horn from one company is necessarily better than a pro horn from another company -- minus marketing gimmicks :).
 
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