Removed serial numbers
- Thread starter Carl H.
- Start date
Carl: In California, and many other states, possession of a serial-numbered item with the serial number obliterated or removed is treated as possession of stolen property. If discovered by law enforcement, a person in possession of such an item will most likely be arrested on the spot for the felony crime (596 PC if my memory serves correctly) of Receiving Stolen Property. The item will be seized as evidence.
Of course, prosecuting the arrest is more difficult, but not impossible and would depend on all of the facts surrounding the arrest and statements made, if any, by the arrestee and/or witnesses.
I can think of no legitimate reason for a person to obliterate or remove a serial number from an item. The possession of such an item is almost as egregious, in my opinion. Sure, being a dumb person may mitigate the possession, but it will end up being a tough lesson in life. Even 48-hours as an unarraigned prisoner is a high price to pay.
If the poster on SOTW would use SOTW's search function, he/she would find tons of comments about this topic from years back.
What do with such an item? I'd advise the person to have a credible receipt for such property. That won't prevent the item's seizure, but may help in avoiding arrest. Otherwise, he/she shouldn't possess it, period. DAVE
Of course, prosecuting the arrest is more difficult, but not impossible and would depend on all of the facts surrounding the arrest and statements made, if any, by the arrestee and/or witnesses.
I can think of no legitimate reason for a person to obliterate or remove a serial number from an item. The possession of such an item is almost as egregious, in my opinion. Sure, being a dumb person may mitigate the possession, but it will end up being a tough lesson in life. Even 48-hours as an unarraigned prisoner is a high price to pay.
If the poster on SOTW would use SOTW's search function, he/she would find tons of comments about this topic from years back.
What do with such an item? I'd advise the person to have a credible receipt for such property. That won't prevent the item's seizure, but may help in avoiding arrest. Otherwise, he/she shouldn't possess it, period. DAVE
I'm fairly positive, based on the picture composition, that that horn was originally sold by saxquest.com. I could be wrong, of course: I generally appended files from saxquest.com with "SQ" so I'd remember the source. However, if it was listed on eBay from SQ, I may have forgotten.
Hey, the pictures are date-stamped April, 2004.
According to the new owner, "Turns out its not stolen, I managed to get the number to the previous owner, and i called him. It was actually a kid that was ashamed that it was a 12M, and he told people it was a custom order from Conn and Beuscher(sp?). He scratched out the serial number a whatever else it said above it below the '12M'."
Sure.
If I were insanely honest with myself or if I wanted to have a clear conscience, I'd check on that the story. I'd contact saxquest.com and ask if a) they sold the horn in 2004-ish (if they have a record) and b) if they did, to whom. And then ask that owner what happened.
But, answering the other question aimed at me, I haven't been e-mailed about this horn.
Hey, the pictures are date-stamped April, 2004.
According to the new owner, "Turns out its not stolen, I managed to get the number to the previous owner, and i called him. It was actually a kid that was ashamed that it was a 12M, and he told people it was a custom order from Conn and Beuscher(sp?). He scratched out the serial number a whatever else it said above it below the '12M'."
Sure.
If I were insanely honest with myself or if I wanted to have a clear conscience, I'd check on that the story. I'd contact saxquest.com and ask if a) they sold the horn in 2004-ish (if they have a record) and b) if they did, to whom. And then ask that owner what happened.
But, answering the other question aimed at me, I haven't been e-mailed about this horn.
Dave, I quoted you without using your name. If you want your name added, though most will recognize it as you, I can do that, or delete it too, if you would prefer that.
Pete, I quoted you too, let me know if you want it pulled or credited.
Pete, I quoted you too, let me know if you want it pulled or credited.
Last edited:
Carl: Sorry for the delay in responding.
I don't care if you attribute to me what I wrote.
I don't know saxquest (heard of it, of course), but I'm betting that horn didn't originate from there. Most secondhand dealers I know of, who want to maintain their reputations, would not be involved with an item with an obliterated serial number. For sure, most pawn shops would steer clear of such an item.
Just because someone bought such an item from a reputable dealer does not trump most states' laws (especially California's) about possessing such property. So, if someone buys a saxophone with an obliterated serial number, the buyer may avoid prosecution for a standard RSP charge, but the section dealing with possession of such property is still applicable, regardless of from where the buyer bought such an item.
AND, if the true owner would ever be discovered, the person who currently possesses the horn would still have to give it up and would not be reimbursed, regardless of intent or knowledge.
I urge all of us in the saxophone community (and elsewhere, really) to discourage possession of obliterated serial-numbered property - no excuses, no cheap explanations, no equivocating. Serial number obliterated? Don't buy it or own it, period. DAVE
I don't care if you attribute to me what I wrote.
I don't know saxquest (heard of it, of course), but I'm betting that horn didn't originate from there. Most secondhand dealers I know of, who want to maintain their reputations, would not be involved with an item with an obliterated serial number. For sure, most pawn shops would steer clear of such an item.
Just because someone bought such an item from a reputable dealer does not trump most states' laws (especially California's) about possessing such property. So, if someone buys a saxophone with an obliterated serial number, the buyer may avoid prosecution for a standard RSP charge, but the section dealing with possession of such property is still applicable, regardless of from where the buyer bought such an item.
AND, if the true owner would ever be discovered, the person who currently possesses the horn would still have to give it up and would not be reimbursed, regardless of intent or knowledge.
I urge all of us in the saxophone community (and elsewhere, really) to discourage possession of obliterated serial-numbered property - no excuses, no cheap explanations, no equivocating. Serial number obliterated? Don't buy it or own it, period. DAVE
BTB, I think you missed my post, Dave: the original pics from 2004, which I attribute to Saxquest, do have the serial number. You can check the gallery out. (Picture 16 is of the serial number.)
I seem to remember an article from cybersax.com regarding horns with removed serial numbers and/or removed manufacturing info. Can't find it at the moment.
I do remember that there was some guy on eBay a few years back that did "erase" the engraving on a horn and re-engrave from a famous horn -- like take a Conn 12M stencil and re-engrave it as a SML Gold Medal.
I reported the seller to eBay.
In any event, if the horn's been "modified" to not show the serial number, it's a definite *pass* and possible call to law enforcement.
Pete: I did read your previous post before responding. But that info may not be of any consequence to someone who has that horn NOW (see below). I agree with your post, though
True, if the horn left saxquest bearing a serial number and someone later obliterated it, a law enforcement officer may be able to run the saxquest's serial number through NCIC and see if it had been reported as stolen. But that still wouldn't adequately identify the questioned horn, especially when the questioned horn does not bear a readable serial number.
A lot of work would have to be done to prove the horn with the obliterated serial number was the same horn as the one sold by saxquest. Without a readable serial number, either the old serial number would have to be raised (and I'm not sure how that would work on thin brass); OR a direct witness would have to identify the questioned horn by means other than a serial number (specific dents, etc.); OR every owner after the sale from saxquest would have to be identified and interviewed to establish the ownership line.
I doubt that much effort would be made with an old saxophone of the limited value of that Conn. And before anyone jumps me about the value-statement, realize that a $2K matter is relatively small in police circles.
I guess what I'm saying is that it really doesn't matter if the questioned horn originated from saxquest with or without a serial number. What matters is that now someone possesses it and that IT is contraband because in most places, it is illegal to possess it.
Let's say if I were the officer who stopped this kid-in-question for a broken tail light and discovered the saxophone with an obliterated serial number in his possession, the next stop would be the booking counter. Someone dumb enough to obliterate a serial number (or carry around something like that) deserves at least a night in jail and having his property confiscated.
Interesting thread, alright. DAVE
True, if the horn left saxquest bearing a serial number and someone later obliterated it, a law enforcement officer may be able to run the saxquest's serial number through NCIC and see if it had been reported as stolen. But that still wouldn't adequately identify the questioned horn, especially when the questioned horn does not bear a readable serial number.
A lot of work would have to be done to prove the horn with the obliterated serial number was the same horn as the one sold by saxquest. Without a readable serial number, either the old serial number would have to be raised (and I'm not sure how that would work on thin brass); OR a direct witness would have to identify the questioned horn by means other than a serial number (specific dents, etc.); OR every owner after the sale from saxquest would have to be identified and interviewed to establish the ownership line.
I doubt that much effort would be made with an old saxophone of the limited value of that Conn. And before anyone jumps me about the value-statement, realize that a $2K matter is relatively small in police circles.
I guess what I'm saying is that it really doesn't matter if the questioned horn originated from saxquest with or without a serial number. What matters is that now someone possesses it and that IT is contraband because in most places, it is illegal to possess it.
Let's say if I were the officer who stopped this kid-in-question for a broken tail light and discovered the saxophone with an obliterated serial number in his possession, the next stop would be the booking counter. Someone dumb enough to obliterate a serial number (or carry around something like that) deserves at least a night in jail and having his property confiscated.
Interesting thread, alright. DAVE
Do traffic cops typically know that saxophones have serial numbers? Wouldn't the cop need probable cause and a warrant to open a case and inspect a saxophone on a tail light stop? Would a self-respecting cop even want that kind of collar? Could he handle the razzing he'd get around the precinct? "Hey, Joe, you caught any more scratched sax-snatchers lately?" (Say that three times real fast.)
Last edited:
I have one horn that "may" have an altered serial number. The last number on the clarinet joints (a "4", as examination with an industrial microscope revealed) has either been worn off (the charitable explanation) or scraped off (the malicious explanation, this being done by some particularly dim witted Puerto Rican con artist) in the past.
I ran the "full" serial number against every stolen number list I could find, but no matches - not even one for the range of the numbers involved (it's a Selmer horn, but you all knew that already, right?). With that all accomplished, I felt pretty confident that it wasn't a stolen horn.
The case for the horn (one of the early formed plastic case bodies, instead of the hung velvet cloth ones that I prefer) has "hard spots" where that portion of the horn rests, and it is possible that (over the thirty years of its life) the body of the clarinet could have been rubbed enough to do the damage. (The articulated G# nature of the horn makes the joints "different" than standard clarinet ones, and the fitting on the case may not have been as careful as it could have been. In any event, I was concerned when I first noticed it.
In any case where the whole number had been obliterated, I would instantly assume a stolen horn and act accordingly. It's the only way to stop the thievery. I've lost one horn over the years (not a particularly valuable one, but still one that I paid for). and it's not a good feeling, I can assure you.
I ran the "full" serial number against every stolen number list I could find, but no matches - not even one for the range of the numbers involved (it's a Selmer horn, but you all knew that already, right?). With that all accomplished, I felt pretty confident that it wasn't a stolen horn.
The case for the horn (one of the early formed plastic case bodies, instead of the hung velvet cloth ones that I prefer) has "hard spots" where that portion of the horn rests, and it is possible that (over the thirty years of its life) the body of the clarinet could have been rubbed enough to do the damage. (The articulated G# nature of the horn makes the joints "different" than standard clarinet ones, and the fitting on the case may not have been as careful as it could have been. In any event, I was concerned when I first noticed it.
In any case where the whole number had been obliterated, I would instantly assume a stolen horn and act accordingly. It's the only way to stop the thievery. I've lost one horn over the years (not a particularly valuable one, but still one that I paid for). and it's not a good feeling, I can assure you.
Al: Many officers have discovered outrageous crimes by merely enforcing equipment violations.
Traffic cops are not dumb; some of the sharpest officers I knew worked traffic at one time or another in their career. Most traffic officers began their careers in patrol, learning how to do the job and handling a variety of assignments before switching to traffic. Then, in traffic assignments, they often pick up other calls when the patrol officers are busy - or they roll on serious calls as back-up.
And, it isn't just traffic cops who enforce vehicle code violations. A VC violation is always solid probable cause to stop and inquire. We used them all the time when I worked L.A.'s Metro Division, the city-wide crime task force. Run a red light, go to jail for robbery (that actually happened to me - as arresting officer assigned to traffic early in my career).
Every case stands on its own, but a good cop will be aware of how to develop probable cause and turn what appears to most people as a non-event into a good, solid felony arrest and/or property recovery. There would no razzing - only the slugs would criticize a fellow officer for making an arrest and recovering property.
Search warrants are not always required. You'd be surprised at how many down-'n'-dirty crooks allow searches to be conducted. And, if an arrest is made (say the driver refuses to sign the citation) a search may be made incident to that arrest without a warrant.
Like I said, each incident is different and to claim that an officer would need a search warrant is too generalized. I used the tail-light situation only to emphasize a point, not as the only scenario where this kid with the obliterated serial numbered saxophone could end up in trouble. DAVE
Traffic cops are not dumb; some of the sharpest officers I knew worked traffic at one time or another in their career. Most traffic officers began their careers in patrol, learning how to do the job and handling a variety of assignments before switching to traffic. Then, in traffic assignments, they often pick up other calls when the patrol officers are busy - or they roll on serious calls as back-up.
And, it isn't just traffic cops who enforce vehicle code violations. A VC violation is always solid probable cause to stop and inquire. We used them all the time when I worked L.A.'s Metro Division, the city-wide crime task force. Run a red light, go to jail for robbery (that actually happened to me - as arresting officer assigned to traffic early in my career).
Every case stands on its own, but a good cop will be aware of how to develop probable cause and turn what appears to most people as a non-event into a good, solid felony arrest and/or property recovery. There would no razzing - only the slugs would criticize a fellow officer for making an arrest and recovering property.
Search warrants are not always required. You'd be surprised at how many down-'n'-dirty crooks allow searches to be conducted. And, if an arrest is made (say the driver refuses to sign the citation) a search may be made incident to that arrest without a warrant.
Like I said, each incident is different and to claim that an officer would need a search warrant is too generalized. I used the tail-light situation only to emphasize a point, not as the only scenario where this kid with the obliterated serial numbered saxophone could end up in trouble. DAVE
I've had several traffic stops over the years. There's almost always at least one instrument in its case in my car. The cops who stopped me for whatever never showed the slightest interest in them.
I think the kid is more likely to encounter trouble the day he tries to sell that horn. And then most likely only from a potential buyer.
It will make an interesting court case when and if some ACLU lawyer defends the freedom-of-expression right of a saxophone owner to personalize it any way he sees fit. And the subsequent false arrest civil action. Won't that be exciting?
A better use of law enforcement would be to arrest Kenny G for disturbing the peace.
In internet forums, there's something that's known as Godwin's Law:As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one (Wiki reference).
The corollary point is that the person that brings up the comparison has just lost the thread.
I'd submit that the saxophone/woodwind version of this would be a Kenny G reference.
==========
I'm fairly sure that most people don't realize that saxophones have serial numbers -- hey, they're all sopranos, anyhow. Just like what Kenny G plays, right? I'd also be fairly certain that most police officers know that just about everything DOES have a serial number and if I was acting really suspicious-like, they'd search everything I have in my car.
I've also never seen a serial number rubbed off in such a manner that I'd think it wasn't intentional.
As for the buyer of the bari in question, I'd wonder what he was thinking buying the horn. Serial number's rubbed off? Other engraving's rubbed off? I'm gonna buy it from some kid? No problems!
I've had horns stolen, too.
Softening my original response, if this kid really did rub off all the identification from his horn because he was embarrassed by the thing, I wouldn't buy the horn from him or even bother trying it out. I just keep thinking that if this really was a "kid" thast did it, he's got a "friend" or school that's now minus a bari.
The corollary point is that the person that brings up the comparison has just lost the thread.
I'd submit that the saxophone/woodwind version of this would be a Kenny G reference.
==========
I'm fairly sure that most people don't realize that saxophones have serial numbers -- hey, they're all sopranos, anyhow. Just like what Kenny G plays, right? I'd also be fairly certain that most police officers know that just about everything DOES have a serial number and if I was acting really suspicious-like, they'd search everything I have in my car.
I've also never seen a serial number rubbed off in such a manner that I'd think it wasn't intentional.
As for the buyer of the bari in question, I'd wonder what he was thinking buying the horn. Serial number's rubbed off? Other engraving's rubbed off? I'm gonna buy it from some kid? No problems!
I've had horns stolen, too.
Softening my original response, if this kid really did rub off all the identification from his horn because he was embarrassed by the thing, I wouldn't buy the horn from him or even bother trying it out. I just keep thinking that if this really was a "kid" thast did it, he's got a "friend" or school that's now minus a bari.
Put the cuffs on. I surrender.
Both Carl and Steve are mentioning specific instances with extenuating circumstances. Hey, I've seen clarinets that have the s/n lightly stamped, too. But ... if the serial number's not there and you can't tell me what it was, sounds like it's a problem.
You sellin' speakers outta that van, too?
Additionally, I have seen serial numbers in odd/stupid places on saxophones, like on the bottom of a key (a key is easy to replace) or on the foot of a keyguard (oops; unsoldered that and now there's no serial).
But all these aren't willful destruction. Hey, even if I hated my Conn bar (and I really hated the one I played for awhile), I wouldn't remove metal to hide the name.
You sellin' speakers outta that van, too?
Additionally, I have seen serial numbers in odd/stupid places on saxophones, like on the bottom of a key (a key is easy to replace) or on the foot of a keyguard (oops; unsoldered that and now there's no serial).
But all these aren't willful destruction. Hey, even if I hated my Conn bar (and I really hated the one I played for awhile), I wouldn't remove metal to hide the name.
So, if you put a buffing wheel on your electric drill and buff off the serial number, does that make you a serial driller?
Al and Pete: At the risk of continuing an already beaten horse (what a mixed metaphor,
eh?), I'll briefly reply for the benefit of those who are reading and wondering, but not responding. After all, this is my area of expertise (certainly it isn't saxophones!!!).
Al, if you look anything like the photo on your posts, most cops would issue the citation (if that was the required action) and be on their way with nary a suspicion. The problem is that some folks just reek with suspicion.
Who knows what this kid looks like, acts like, in which manner the horn is stored in the car, what else the kid has in plain view, or what he may doing when stopped (like smoking a joint, refusing to co-operate with the officer's legitimate questions, etc., etc.)? That's why I said that if I stopped him and discovered the horn (by ANY means), I'd arrest him.
You just hand over your license and registration and insurance card, are courteous, and eventually drive away. But many others are not like you. Those cops who stopped you and inquired, may become engaged in a knock-down-drag-out at the very next stop. Every minute in police work brings a new adventure.
You are right about an attempt to sell it in that condition. DAVE
eh?), I'll briefly reply for the benefit of those who are reading and wondering, but not responding. After all, this is my area of expertise (certainly it isn't saxophones!!!).
Al, if you look anything like the photo on your posts, most cops would issue the citation (if that was the required action) and be on their way with nary a suspicion. The problem is that some folks just reek with suspicion.
Who knows what this kid looks like, acts like, in which manner the horn is stored in the car, what else the kid has in plain view, or what he may doing when stopped (like smoking a joint, refusing to co-operate with the officer's legitimate questions, etc., etc.)? That's why I said that if I stopped him and discovered the horn (by ANY means), I'd arrest him.
You just hand over your license and registration and insurance card, are courteous, and eventually drive away. But many others are not like you. Those cops who stopped you and inquired, may become engaged in a knock-down-drag-out at the very next stop. Every minute in police work brings a new adventure.
You are right about an attempt to sell it in that condition. DAVE