tárogató pix

Dang that's a nice looking tárogató - the bell contrast gives it character. I really like the tight keywork on it too, plus the wood is in incredible condition (although hard to tell from the pictures alone) on both the bell and body.
Lucky find.
It's not easy to get a well made old tárogató for a good price these days, especially in nice condition like this.
I'm still on the hunt for a new conical friend myself. It's like fishing for sure, deep sea fishing. That's why they call it fishing, not catching.
 
Very Nice! Congrats on your new instrument. Looks like Christmas came early this year.
 
Yes, Santa was kind. I must have been a good boy.

@PrincessJ: the wood is in extraordinarily good shape. There are a couple of hairline cracks in the bell, but aside from a few deep scratches the body is almost pristine, although it does show wear at the holes. However it looked like the bore had never been swabbed: running my finger inside it came out black with wood powder. I did a major clean up and a quick sand down inside. It drank oil inside and out like an old Pontiac, and now seems very happy. I love the tone and will try to post a sound file at some point.

@George: the bore is most definitely cylindrical at the top, but the octaves are spot on. Changing the mpc volume, even quite a bit, did not change the octave relationships much.
 
kymarto said:
Yes, Santa was kind. I must have been a good boy.

@PrincessJ: the wood is in extraordinarily good shape. There are a couple of hairline cracks in the bell, but aside from a few deep scratches the body is almost pristine, although it does show wear at the holes. However it looked like the bore had never been swabbed: running my finger inside it came out black with wood powder. I did a major clean up and a quick sand down inside. It drank oil inside and out like an old Pontiac, and now seems very happy. I love the tone and will try to post a sound file at some point.

@George: the bore is most definitely cylindrical at the top, but the octaves are spot on. Changing the mpc volume, even quite a bit, did not change the octave relationships much.
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I should clarify that I actually removed very little wood when I adjusted my bore. The top few inches remained cylindrical (about 8 or 9mm, I forgot).

What type of bore oil did you use? I always used almond oil with a few drops of tea tree oil mixed in. But lately I discovered some kind of butcher block oil, which is mineral, food-safe, and seems to stay quite fluid, while staying on the walls. I love it in the panpipes (where you always want the walls a little wet), but I am sure this is probably not desired in wooden reed instruments.

Also, how often do you plan on oiling the tárogató?
 
Gheorghe, if it's of any use I use the same oil blend for most cases (almond and tea tree) for reference, and I generally only oil the bore of my instrument once every month, it asks for it unlike my old grenadilla clarinets which rarely require oiling at all.
I oil it when the wood seems to be "thirsty" for it, remember, if it looks "oiled" the next day (or even several hours depending), it's been likely over oiled. I learned that lesson the hard way a while ago and my Martin Freres clarinet did not thank me!
 
Gheorghe said:
I should clarify that I actually removed very little wood when I adjusted my bore. The top few inches remained cylindrical (about 8 or 9mm, I forgot).

What type of bore oil did you use? I always used almond oil with a few drops of tea tree oil mixed in. But lately I discovered some kind of butcher block oil, which is mineral, food-safe, and seems to stay quite fluid, while staying on the walls. I love it in the panpipes (where you always want the walls a little wet), but I am sure this is probably not desired in wooden reed instruments.

Also, how often do you plan on oiling the tárogató?
Click to expand...

We recently had a long discussion about this on another forum. The experts said not to use standard mineral-based commercial bore oils. Any non-drying plant-based oil that does not leave a sticky residue is OK. Almond oil should be OK, but tea tree does leave a nasty residue and I would avoid it personally. I use pure camellia oil, which is the oil of choice for shakuhachi flutes, and has been used for that purpose for centuries in Japan. Jojoba oil is supposed to be very good as it is light, but be sure to get it without PABA or other additives.

Oil can be applied liberally to the bore, with the caveat that care should be taken that it does not run into tone holes and get on the pads. I take a flute swab stick, wrap with a cotton cloth (long enough that I can hold it tight at the end), apply a fair amount of oil around the top of the cloth and "paint" the entire inside of the bore. You'll need a thinner strip of cloth at the top of the bore.

I also lightly oil the outside, avoiding the keys, but this is not so important. I oil repeatedly until the oil is not absorbed overnight, then swab the excess out.

At that point I will probably do a thin coat every couple of months, following the same procedure.

The name of the game is to replace the missing natural oils in the wood, so that the lignin structure does not absorb moisture. As water is absorbed the wood swells, and when it evaporates the wood shrinks, and it is thought that this cycle over the years can cause or contribute to cracks. It also limits saliva damage to the wood (saliva has compounds that break down organic materials), and prevents calcium deposition in the bore.

The Romamian instrument I have is not a tight-grained hardwood and would probably absorb a huge amount of oil. With that one I would probably cost twice and recoat once every couple of months, but I would not try to saturate it, I think.
 
I had a case with someone I knew a while ago. His clarinet got oiled for the first time in many years, was over oiled, and water actually got trapped in the bore making the instrument play about as flat as a pancake (at least 16c flat all around) for months. I don't know what oil he had used on it. Grenadilla wood.

I simply place absorbent thin material under the pads while oiling. Much easier and more effective way to do it. Also I apply oil to the inside of the bore using a swab as well.

First and foremost if the instrument hasn't been oiled in a very long time it's best to start moderately versus liberally as one simply cannot know how the wood will react, regardless of your oil choice! Over oiling can literally (and believe me I have experienced this along with others) backfire. As a thoroughly experienced technician I will tell you one thing right now, oiling too much can be just as deadly as under oiling. I just did some searching online for a decent explanation (please read to the important parts, we all know the basics about oil, water and wood.)
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/oilingbore.htm#sectionone
 
kymarto said:
We recently had a long discussion about this on another forum. The experts said not to use standard mineral-based commercial bore oils. Any non-drying plant-based oil that does not leave a sticky residue is OK. Almond oil should be OK, but tea tree does leave a nasty residue and I would avoid it personally. I use pure camellia oil, which is the oil of choice for shakuhachi flutes, and has been used for that purpose for centuries in Japan. Jojoba oil is supposed to be very good as it is light, but be sure to get it without PABA or other additives.

Oil can be applied liberally to the bore, with the caveat that care should be taken that it does not run into tone holes and get on the pads. I take a flute swab stick, wrap with a cotton cloth (long enough that I can hold it tight at the end), apply a fair amount of oil around the top of the cloth and "paint" the entire inside of the bore. You'll need a thinner strip of cloth at the top of the bore.

I also lightly oil the outside, avoiding the keys, but this is not so important. I oil repeatedly until the oil is not absorbed overnight, then swab the excess out.

At that point I will probably do a thin coat every couple of months, following the same procedure.

The name of the game is to replace the missing natural oils in the wood, so that the lignin structure does not absorb moisture. As water is absorbed the wood swells, and when it evaporates the wood shrinks, and it is thought that this cycle over the years can cause or contribute to cracks. It also limits saliva damage to the wood (saliva has compounds that break down organic materials), and prevents calcium deposition in the bore.

The Romamian instrument I have is not a tight-grained hardwood and would probably absorb a huge amount of oil. With that one I would probably cost twice and recoat once every couple of months, but I would not try to saturate it, I think.
Click to expand...

My inclination is to stick with the almond oil. With the tea tree oil, which I only add as a disinfectant, we're talking around 3-5 drops per a 8oz or so. I never had an issue with any residue, other than a friend of mine trying to use a bottle of almond oil that was around 5 years old - the thing was pretty sticky, and I advised him to spend the $7 for a new one:)

For my panpipes, I'm going with the butcher block oil now, because moist walls are desirable.

George
 
Good choice, Gheorghe. I likely use a little more tea tree than you do for my instruments as they have a tendency to react beautifully. Besides I also keep some in a stash for use on conditioning my hair, double bonus! ;)
 
PrincessJ said:
Good choice, Gheorghe. I likely use a little more tea tree than you do for my instruments as they have a tendency to react beautifully. Besides I also keep some in a stash for use on conditioning my hair, double bonus! ;)
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I didn't know it's good for hair. One caution: tea tree oil is toxic to cats, so if you have kitties, keep them away from it.

George
 
Ahh don't worry about my four little furbabies. The oil is always kept as far as possible from them all, and it never sits in my hair long enough for a cat to get from it (and I certainly don't allow them to lick my fragile silky locks), but thanks for respecting my kitties! :)

And on the topic of residue - the only issues I've ever had with "residue" are if I forgot to remove any strange particles (dry rot, molds, etc) from the bore before oiling, as I've had oil "pick up" the crudly dudlies (think dusty plasma), and form a residue from that. Almond oil again.

I personally hate using jojoba oil as it happens to feel, although "light", too overly oily and a bit suffocating to the wood when over done, so be careful with it.

Second of all before you oil again, make sure it actually needs it, and don't just oil for the sake of oiling. Some instruments don't like to be oiled more than once a year, believe it or not. The reason I stress caution as I've said before is that I've heard way too many stories and seen way to many people ruin their instruments with over zealous oiling.
 
Oh my gosh they still have Dr's, I forgot about that stuff. It actually works fantastically. There are tons of "commercially available" bore oils that work just fine, and this is one of them. Worth the money if you need to oil your instrument a lot. If you instrument is one of those "oil every 6 months or so" types, not worth the money.

I've never bothered polishing the bores of my personal instruments using any material, I'm not exactly a high gloss person when it comes to that. But I have tried it on others.

Doc's stuff has been recommended by many, and carnauba is used tried and true, use it sparingly as a little does go a long way on most woods.
:)
 
An interesting read:

http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/Grenadilla.htm

He soaks old instruments in oil. Oiling could only affect the tuning if it changed internal bore dimensions, and I have a hard time believing that a hardwood like grenadilla could change dimensions dramatically with oiling.

OTOH wood is hardly a dimensionally-stable material, and small changes in bore diameter at critical points can affect intonation noticeably, so maybe it is possible.
 
kymarto said:
OTOH wood is hardly a dimensionally-stable material, and small changes in bore diameter at critical points can affect intonation noticeably, so maybe it is possible.
Click to expand...

Which could possibly answer your question to me about my old tárogató's upper joint, when I suggested that perhaps the upper joint shrunk a bit during the years of sitting in storage, narrowing the octaves. Wood doesn't necessarily shrink/expand uniformly. Just one possibility. I don't worry about it now.

George
 
kymarto said:
OTOH wood is hardly a dimensionally-stable material, and small changes in bore diameter at critical points can affect intonation noticeably, so maybe it is possible.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is possible. And you wouldn't believe how tiny these little changes have to be throughout the instrument to bother your intonation. Regardless of your wood choice (grenadilla, other rosewoods, even plywood [think the violinwood pan-american clarinets).

As I stress once again, try it mildly, see what happens, and if all goes well, go for a heavier oiling session. It works well to "introduce" your instrument to the oiling, and "acclimate" it to the conditions. Also, obviously, your climate has plenty to do with how your instrument will react, so pay close attention to the temp and humidity level, adjust your practices accordingly.
 
I live in a very humid climate, but it is very important to oil in a dry climate, where the horn experiences rapid humidity changes. Just as an airframe is heavily stressed by takeoff/landing cycles, where the attendant pressure changes flex the metal and can lead to metal fatigue and stress fractures, many cycles where the wood absorbs moisture and swells, then dries and contracts, can contribute to cracking. The faster this happens, the worse for the wood.

Also important is swabbing the bore after playing. Uneven drying is definitely undesirable. With oboe we take a turkey feather to distribute the water in the bore evenly, since it is impossible to run a swab through the top joint.

In a dry climate it is advisable to keep a humidifier in the case as well.

This new baby of mine is as thirsty as a sailor on shore leave. I am coating with a thin layer of oil once a day and will continue to do so until the bore stops absorbing oil--if it absorbs oil it will absorb (and lose) water even more voraciously--the less volatility, the better.
 
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