tárogató Remanufactured Part D - The Finale

jbtsax

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
Drum roll please....................................

At long last, the tárogató is in playable condition. The intonation is surprisingly good. The scale is a bit uneven with some notes that are stuffy and out of tune, but the octaves are right on which is very important. The lower octave doesn't speak as well as I would like since it takes a lot of effort voicing the notes to get them to respond, and there is still work to be done on the acoustics and taming the "wild bore", but that will come in time. Some key modifications need to be done to the lower joint to allow an F fingered 1 & 3 to facilitate the D to F and Eb to F change, and to make the low Bb playable using human anatomy. :)

Below are a few photos of the finished tárogató.

Taragato1.jpg

Tarogato2.jpg


Here is a link to some soundclips of a few easy tunes demonstrating the tone of the instrument. http://soundcloud.com/jbtsax/sets/taragoto-sound-examples/

All in all it has been a great learning experience. Thanks again to Kymarto for giving me this opportunity.
 
Damn John! Good on you my friend! I am overjoyed that you ended up with a decent instrument after all your amazing work. I had the sense that the tuning was pretty good, but it hardly played when I had it. Don't thank me--I thank you both for being willing to take it off my hands (I never would have gotten it playing decently; it would have sat taking up space)--and for adopting the instrument and giving it the care it needed.

The horn looks beautiful, and I am impressed by your playing as well. Super! Kudos! :)
 
Thanks all for your kind compliments. A lot of the fun of working on a project like this is being able to share with others.

Now that I have had a chance to play the tárogató I have found a very interesting and challenging problem. On the lower joint playing F natural using 1 and 3 simply doesn't work. On other tárogatós that have a ring for the 2nd key on the lower joint the problem doesn't exist. For some reason, the Romanians chose to put all padded keys on the lower joint. The photo below shows what needs to happen for this fingering to work. Without this xxx|xox F fingering going from D or Eb to F natural quickly and smoothly is virtually impossible. The only way I can conceive to work around this problem is to convert the lower joint keys to work like a flute lower stack with pinned keys on a rotating rod. Maybe some of you can come up with some other ideas as well. This modification will have to wait since I am working on "the dumpster Mark VI" for the time being. More about that later in another thread.

FnaturalKeyProblem.jpg
 
I'd cut the tube with that middle ("independent") key and add a bridge around that middle key which closes the vent when either of the upper keys is operated, but so that the uppermost one leaves the middle one alone. The middle depresses a nib on the other side which will also close the vent.
(sorry for the crude sketch, but you'll get the idea)
 
Ah, life is a bitch...However there is hope. I don't remember the exact mechanism, but it is obviously different than it is on a four ring instrument. On a four ring, the first hole on the lower stack (F#) is unkeyed. The second and third are on a single rod, so always move together, and the reason for that is that below F#, the side F resonance key should close.

On my tárogatós, with forked F natural, the Eb key has to be opened in order that the note not be stuffy and flat. I did a little experiment, and found that the fork F is nicely in tune if the resonance key is open--and the Eb is left closed, so what you would want is this:

Just have the E and D (2nd and 3rd) keys move independently. Again, I don't remember the exact mechanism you have, but if they are tied together with a clutch, just cut it. Do the E and D have separate needle springs? If so I don't think it is a big problem.

If you can link the side F resonance key only to the E key, you are in good shape. In that case, going from F# to E or normal F (E with F key) will close the resonance key, giving you the correct intonation. But raising the E key while keeping the D key down (for fork F) will allow the resonance key to raise and give you a good fork F natural without the need for the Eb key.

If you can do that, you will actually have improved the whole instrument, making the fork F natural easier to play--no need for the Eb. That will be especially useful for passing from C or C# to F--no need to slide the pinky up to the Eb for the fork F to be in tune :)
 
tictactux said:
I'd cut the tube with that middle ("independent") key and add a bridge around that middle key which closes the vent when either of the upper keys is operated, but so that the uppermost one leaves the middle one alone. The middle depresses a nib on the other side which will also close the vent.
(sorry for the crude sketch, but you'll get the idea)
Click to expand...
I really like your idea of having a "nib" on each side. I wouldn't have thought of that. Unfortunately the "sliver" F key is in the way as the photo below shows.
Keyintheway-1.jpg



kymarto said:
On my tárogatós, with forked F natural, the Eb key has to be opened in order that the note not be stuffy and flat. I did a little experiment, and found that the fork F is nicely in tune if the resonance key is open--and the Eb is left closed, so what you would want is this:
Click to expand...
(shouldn't that be tarogoti or tarogotae? :) ) It happens that on mine the fork F is not improved with any combination of the the Eb and resonance keys open or closed. The solution is to have the D key close the small key just below the first finger F# shown with an arrow. This was discovered by putting a piece of tape over this tonehole when the fork F fingering was played and having the F natural pop out clear and in tune.

kymarto said:
Just have the E and D (2nd and 3rd) keys move independently. Again, I don't remember the exact mechanism you have, but if they are tied together with a clutch, just cut it. Do the E and D have separate needle springs? If so I don't think it is a big problem.
Click to expand...
That is the way the keys are set up at present. The E key closes the resonance key. The D key does not.
kymarto said:
If you can link the side F resonance key only to the E key, you are in good shape. In that case, going from F# to E or normal F (E with F key) will close the resonance key, giving you the correct intonation. But raising the E key while keeping the D key down (for fork F) will allow the resonance key to raise and give you a good fork F natural without the need for the Eb key.
Click to expand...
When I tape over the small tonehole, this is exactly what happens.
kymarto said:
If you can do that, you will actually have improved the whole instrument, making the fork F natural easier to play--no need for the Eb. That will be especially useful for passing from C or C# to F--no need to slide the pinky up to the Eb for the fork F to be in tune :)
Click to expand...
Well said. I can tell you still think like an oboist.
 
jbtsax said:
I really like your idea of having a "nib" on each side. I wouldn't have thought of that. Unfortunately the "sliver" F key is in the way as the photo below shows.
Keyintheway-1.jpg
Click to expand...
Then do it the other way round - cut the vent free, add a nib so that it closes with the middle key, as before.
Plus add a "bis key" touchpiece and a small arm so that depressing the vent will also close the "upstream" key.

Edit: trilling would be a bitch then, however... :-(
 
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I stand (sit) corrected. :) Someday I'm going to have to learn how to make the phonetic marks above letters on my keyboard.

I really like Ben's "outside of the box" thinking. The photo below shows the flute-like solution I previously mentioned. The lower post would contain a pivot screw to allow the internal rod to rotate and the uppermost key would have a separate rod with a pivot point on the end.
Keyproblemsolution.jpg
 
If you use a Minibal bearing on the lowermost post (leftmost in your picture), then you can skip all the pivot screw stuff and have just one freely rotating rod with two pins. The upper end of the rod would just float in the post as it is secured on the lower end.
 
Then we can go into business making improved tarogatok--full conservatory system soon :)

I can't do phonetic on the PC--too damn much trouble to remember the keystroke combos. On the iPhone it is easy.
 
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