What is a realistic price for a Buffet Festival with these issues?

sanniejop

Hi, I am new to this forum and also to the world of clarinets.
My daugther has been playing the clarinet for seven years now and her teacher told us it is time to step up to a professional clarinet.
So we went to a store (with her teacher) and tried some second hands, and ended up with a Buffet Festival. It sounds beautiful.
We have it at home at sight for two weeks to try it out.
Now before purchasing it, I did some research on the instrument. At home I took a close look at the instrument and i found the following issues. There is a crack going through two tone holes on the outside, all the way to the tones or joint (what is it called?) on the inside of the bore it looks ok but this is difficult to judge. I tested if it is leaking but it seems OK.
In the lower part, on the inside of the bore, it looks like there is a small piece of wood broken out of the surface. Is this a familiar more often seen defect? Is this a problem? Makes it a weak spot for cracks in the future?
Serial number is 465xxx so i guess the instrument is about 22 years old?

They are asking quite a high amount of money for it. So I was wondering if somebody could give me an idea of what is a realistic price point for this kind of instrument in this condition? I am quite curious what you people here think about this....

Thanks in advance
Sandor

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Now a tad more.
In the photo there appears to be a crack also to the tip trill key tone hole.

Cracks of this type may not "seem" to be an issue.

But more than likely the crack also goes into the tonehole and provides a pinhole type leak that usually is overlooked, at least initially.

As one plays an instrument continuously (continuously, when one stops the instrument cools off and contracts a bit) but normally around the 10 minute of continuous playing mark an instrument expands enough to expose those cracks a bit more to make it a problem.
"Full" Tone drops off and so does instrument response and stability.

To properly fix this would make the purchase simply not worth it unless you were given the instrument for free.
Tonehole inserts possibly, carbon fiber banding maybe with pinning.

Without putting a bore scope down the bore I would just avoid it. The chunk missing could be from a couple things, such as
- Pinning which pushed into the bore
- wood layer separation with a chunk falling out
'ya know .. stuff you don't want to deal with at all
 
Hi Steve, thanks for your reply. I am already getting less enthousiastic about this instrument. I only saw this crack (see orange line) where is the other one you see?

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Hi, i am back again. Now we have found another clarinet as an option. It is a two and a half year old RC . But this one has very small cracks at two tenons ends. They are very very small but i dont know if this is a big risk. Will they progress rapidly to bigger cracks? Also there is a 64 mm barrel with it, while 65 or 66 is standard for Bb clarinet. Is this a big issue? We checked the tuning and that seems fine.
Another point of worry is the alignment of some pads. Will this stay OK for the longer term?
Thanks for your advice.

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Did you get this from the same store?
I was going to initially comment how that store could even offer that first Festival at all to customers. So I would avoid that particular store.

Can a crack continue to grow?
Yes it can.

You also may not see the crack continue until you play it. Sometimes cracks are very hard to see as they disappear in the grain. And they only upon up after about 10 minutes of play when the internal bore warms up a bit quicker than the outside and then the crack appears.
 
I would think the concept that those cracks can continue to grow would be enough to scare you away.
It's like buying a low mileage used car only to find out it was previously totaled and was a rebuild/retitle and will never drive like a new car.

can you take a look and see if these are cracks - shown in orange ?
Crack.jpg


with those tenon cracks I wouldn't worry about the pads.
but it appears, assuming it's the same keywork, that the toneholes were misaligned in production ... somehow as it's all automated nowadays (see next post).
It's discerning a bit with offset keywork. Personally, I would keep looking for a better example.
but if The Ab throat key and C#/G# key pads seals the tonehole properly, and other RCs are the same (which I have not researched), and there's no weird drag with it, then it should be okay.

It's good that you are looking closely at these details as few people would ever do that considering one was a store and the other a teacher/conductor. But does the teacher/conductor see the same issue- and what is/was their response ?
And I'm curious what the store's response was from earlier.
 
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Thanks Steve for your complement.
I have not yet spoken to both of them yet. We were considering to buy one of those . But as I understand you are saying, dont buy any of them.

The old Festival would get a big service treatment from the shop. They ask 1850 euros for this oldie. And one barrel is missing. I was thinking to do a lower bid.

The young RC has his own issues including a deviating barrel size. Dont know how it will tune when it is summer? He asks 1400 euros. To good to be true? Or can i also do a lower bid? It is only two years old.

I find it so difficult since there is not much choice in secondhands. My daugther (14yrs) likes a second hand because she find out they are playing a lot easier than a new one (RC) which she tried. But i guess secondhand professional models will always have an issue, otherwise they would not be for sale and stay at their owner? Right or not?
 
Instruments are second hand for a variety of reasons, such as:
- it got broken somehow and the owner replaced it (traded it in for a new one or something)
- the owner tried another instrument and liked it better (happens a lot)
- the owner bought it .. and others .. then sold to pay the bills. or just sold to pay the bills
- passed away ... and a variety of other reasons.
- pawn shop $$$ or stolen

but I recommend to see if you can find an older R13
Not a R13 Prestige or anything like that .. just a regular R13 made in the mid 1960s or newer. 1980s keywork gets far more sturdier and refined though. Refurbished at some reseller. I'm not familiar at all with Europe but if you tell me where you are at I can maybe give some pointers after asking a few friends.

If she goes to college as a performance major that R13 contains all the technology that is needed for proper pedagogy training.
The multi-tapered bore teaches one feedback and tonal balance throughout the instruments range (more easily than a cylindrical bore)
the hourglass toneholes teaches one how to shade and "fluff" the tonal quality.
etc etc.

I was never a Buffet person .. always a Leblanc and Selmer until I attempted to get that certain Buffet R13 "hollow" sound because I could on Buffets. It's like the Selmer Paris saxophone "bucket" sound.

I tried and tried .... I bought myself an R13, refurb'd it .. and viola .. it was there front and center. Finally smacked myself aside the head and realized it's the instrument. Then started learning about instrument design.
So then I became a Buffet ONLY person really. only bought/ refurb'd / resold Buffets.

All the students who look for instruments and want to go to college for a music career of some sorts I tell them get an R13.
If you don't buy one now, the professor will tell them to get one .. which is very common (or any professional buffet)
The reason, as I found out, is because what they teach (the good ones), you won't get the results without one.

Of course, today there are other options. a Leblanc Concerto, is an alternative along with a plethora of other R13ish clone alternatives. But that college professor may not know the alternatives and just recommend an R13.

In the US there's plenty of resellers of older R13s.
I would assume you can find them in Europe too


That first Festival you showed .. because of all the problems I wouldn't buy it at all unless it was totally dirt cheap (like $500 or so USD)
The second .. the value of damaged instruments is really bad in the second market. I try to avoid buying anything damaged or cracked at all.

Where ppl get more money for things is in teaching circles.
This is what I consider a "closed market" as I outline here ==> https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/clarinet-values/

If you put that all cracked up Festival on eBay and identified all the problems starting at $0.01 cent I'd be surprised if it got to $750.
but many times people think optimistically and over look major potential problems so maybe it would sell for more.
But truthfully, I haven't really tracked prices recently -- too many outside variables.

But I'd say keep searching.
Find that perfect instrument.
It may take some time.
And tell me approximately where you are at to see if I can find a place someone knows about in your area. PM me if you want.
 
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I agree with everything Steve has told you. You are getting educated advice.

I'd advise you not to bring up the information here as gospel to the people selling the instruments as Steve and I are unknown people on the internet What 2 guys on the internet say is worth practically nothing to people who don't know us. Some might take offense even. Just use your new found knowledge in evaluating instruments and their real market value and hopefully you'll find a nice instrument for a good price from someone who knows what they have.
 
I've reached out to a friend who is in England.
I used to know a couple shops in the Netherlands (or Belgium or something) - I was searching for them a few hours ago but couldn't find them. So I'm waiting for a reply right now. I don't know about the shipping policies around the EU / UK, etc so I'm trying to look for a shop in the Netherlands.
 
I'm not as knowledgeable as Steve and Carl, but I'd run away from that deal.
I have bought, played, and sold clarinets, especially over the past 4 years when I took up the Clarinet again.

There are a lot of used Clarinets out there in great condition, and for sale for a reasonable price.
 
I'd stay away from anything that starts out with issues that could get costly down the road.
A properly banded/pinned crack is usually ok but a crack that goes into a tone hole - I'd walk away.
How about a used Selmer Series 9 or 10? (I have a 10G and love it).
There are plenty of them around on the used market....
A series 9 was a pro instrument in the 60's and is enough clarinet to get a student into regional high school festivals (along with lots of practice) IMO.

Would I buy a n-e-w clarinet these days....?
Recently I've had two associates that bought new R13s only to have them crack within a few months......
 
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