Yes, there is such a thing as a Student sax

[pete]

Take a peek.

This one's interesting for a lot of reasons, one of which is that I don't necessarily think that Keilwerth made this. Possibly Amati.

There's another one here.

 

[kevgermany]

Do tell, I'm bidding on it.

Rather a sad story, widow selling off all her household items, including her husband's old sax.

 

[SOTSDO]

Yeah, but...

...the "grieving widow" is but one trick oft used by eBay folks to generate interest/sympathy in the universe of buyers out there.

It might be true – anything can happen, even the Saint Louis Blues could win the Stanley Cup in theory – but it might just as well be an out and out fib. Lord knows that it gets used a lot, judging by my "survey" visits to the place once a month or so.

Others are the "I'm not a musician" pose, usually accompanied by a vague description laced with buzzwords like "Selmer" (or the variant "Selman"), the old "was owned by my uncle/neighbor, a professional musician, for whom I am selling it" (what, can't your uncle/neighbor sell it himself?) and similar strings.

Even more common are statements like "I'm just a dealer, but I have looked at the instrument and all of the valves seem to be intact and working", this from an individual with a fancy display system laden with musical instruments. 'I'm not a musician, but I'm listing a couple of dozen musical instruments' – yeah, right, sure...

Someday, I'm going to offer a course on how to lie on eBay...

 

[tictactux]

My favourite is the one where the seller suggests the buyer might have to buy a new "{wood|bamboo} {piece|shingle|plate|...}", just to prove his/her honesty-cum-naïvity.

Hmm...maybe we should offer our expertise in the form of services like Proofreading For The Clueless Seller. We all have a wealth of uncles and nephews who are In The Know and can testify that the AIQ (apparatus in question) is legit and buyworthy.
No more necks pointing towards the bell, no more rear-side keywork. (Photo consultancy comes at a premium, though, as does custom image blurring or masking out the naughty bits)

 

[pete]

Do tell, I'm bidding on it.

The first rule of eBay Club is that you know what you're bidding on before you bid on it .

OK, the reasons against Julius Keilwerth manufacture:
* "05535" is not a JK serial number. You could make the argument that someone just misread the number, but that other ad has a s/n of 05529.
* No "Best in the World" trademark stamp.
* No "Made in Germany" stamp.
* Last time JK used that kind of G# cluster was a loooong time ago. And it wasn't exactly like that, even then.

I think Amati because a) JK and Amati have had a very long relationship and b) this Student horn is very clearly a stencil of an Amati Classic Super (or "Super Classic," if you prefer) -- you can tell by the keyguards. I think the ones in those eBay ads are just newer Amatis.

It's definitely possible it's another maker. I just don't think the maker's JK.

Anyhow, the first ad also has a couple nice-looking mouthpieces. Hey, a Berg Larsen lists for over $200, new. The case looks good, too. At this point, you're going to get value, one way or another.

 

[kevgermany]

My you're a cynical lot ;-)- or do you have a lot more shysters than we do?

Seriously, This looks, at first sight, genuine. But - the seller knows an awful lot about what's being sold, not just this sax, but the other items. A bit too much to make me comfortable. And for a grieving widow she's made an awful lot of sales. Bt the feedback is excellent. Too nuch and too good to be a problem type. And in all my ebay trades here there've been close to zero problems. One sax was over described - but for the price was fair. And a camera I bought for a Euro didn't work, seller said send it back, but it wasn't worth the postage. Generally the sellers here are good. And it's difficult or impossible for them to hide, cos you get their bank details when you win an auction....

 

[Helen]

Well this is, and is not, a JK horn. In the 1970s and 1980s, the JK entry level horns were called Student, while the intermediate horns were the Tonekings, and the pro horns were the Toneking Specials. The 80s also saw the top of the line Toneking Exclusive, at the top of the JK, saxophone model pyramid.

The Student saxophones were first made by Amati, and then by B&S. As the 1990s rolled around, the Student was renamed the ST90, and production again switched to Amati (until about 2003) and finally Jupiter.

Bottom line: JK didn't make its own student model horns. They bought them from other companies, and had their name stencilled on.

Uwe Ladwig did extensive research on this, and I vaguely remembered reading an obscure table somewhere with the name "Student" on it. You had to make me dig through all the research, didn't you Pete. :tongue:

 

[SOTSDO]

After you review a couple of thousand ads (I look at all the Selmer "professional level" clarinets on a month-to-month basis - they do blend together but you still recall some salient issues), the "trends" start to aggregate in your mind.

When it comes to spending money, I tend to get really cynical...

 

[pete]

You had to make me dig through all the research, didn't you Pete. :tongue:

Well, the pic is on your website .

I don't have enough data on B&S, yet: I'm fairly positive that their ancestry is going to be complicated by the fact that B&S is made from GH Huller and Weltklang and may have some components of the MIGMA cooperative. Add that to the fact that Google pukes at you when you try to search for "B&S." I've also looked over a couple SOTW threads where people insist that their Curtois horns are made by B&S. I believe Curtois was once an Amati brand and now they're part of Buffet.

FWIW, a lot of B&S horns do have serial numbers starting with a zero ....

Why can't Germanic manufacturers be nice and tidy like their American counterparts? You've got Conn, Buescher, HN White, Martin, Holton and a few odd horns from EA Couturier and JW York. Everything else is a stencil of those. (Actually, ever since I found out about MIGMA, which was a huge "clearing house" of at least a dozen Germanic manufacturers, I'm really starting to think that all the designs were just shared and some just adhered to the design better than others.)

 

[kevgermany]

I think the problem is that the designs were so standard that the distinguishing features are small and not well documented.

Doesn't help that most of the records were lost after WWII.

 

[SOTSDO]

Didn't Hitler "discourage" the use of the saxophone in the later 1930s? I recall instructions that they should be replaced in music, with particular recollection of the tenor being replaced by the 'cello.

Of course, that makes the Luftwaffe sax seen on eBay a few years back even more enigmatic...

 

[pete]

Of course, I call Godwin's Law .

Anyhow, I thought it was the reverse: the sax was first called an instrument of the Western fascist pigs (there's a joke in there) and then that ban was lifted.

 

[kevgermany]

Here's an Amati made one. Pics's not too good, but the keyguards on the bell are clearly Amati (imho):

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Keilwerth-Te...0778460573&po=&ps=63&clkid=166624022871387830

 

[tictactux]

Here's an Amati made one. Pics's not too good, but the keyguards on the bell are clearly Amati (imho):

Yep, looks familiar. The keyguards and the parallel arms of all the bow/bell keys.

 

[Helen]

Here's an Amati made one. Pics's not too good, but the keyguards on the bell are clearly Amati (imho):

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Keilwerth-Te...0778460573&po=&ps=63&clkid=166624022871387830

Good find Kevin. There's just something inherently ugly about those model Amatis--IMO of course. Other Amati saxes look fine, but these key guards, combined with that bell to body brace, just look very unattractive to me. That said, they are instantly recognizable.