1935 Vintage Buffet

Roland S

Roland S

Hello to All,

This is my first post and I would like some info regarding an old Buffet Crampon that was given to me a couple of years ago. I had it checked out by a local repair man and was told that it was actually a very fine instrument, probably top of the line for it's day. I went ahead and had it overhauled ( about $330)and the result was quite a beautiful specimen! I got a professional symphonic clarinetist to play it, (who is also a Buffet rep) and confirmed that it was indeed a fine instrument.

My dilemma is that I've been told that it may be worth as much as $2,000 or only as much as someone will pay for it. I didn't notice if this forum has a classified section or not but before I list it anywhere I would like to find at least a ballpark figure to start from.

I should also confess that I am not a woodwind player (if you didn't guess alread) but a trumpet player. I thought that if anyone could give me some input it would be the folks here at "The Woodwind Forum"

I eagerly await some kind of input....anything at all!

Thanks! Roland
 
Re. 1935 Buffet

Pete,

I'll send some pics to your email as I don't have time to downsize them for this forum.

Thanks!
R.
 
Roland: I've been following this thread and wish to comment. While I agree that a good set of photos would help Pete to do his thing properly, a more detailed description of your clarinet may help the rest of us, too.

For instance, I think we all assume your clarinet is a Boehm System Bb soprano clarinet, but those things need to be mentioned before any of us advise you. A description of the keywork would help - like, does it have silver-plated keywork like my Buffet RC Prestige or does it have nickel keywork like my old Buffet R13?

As to value, a lot of that is subjective and depends much on timing - and pricing. You must find a buyer with the money and the desire for the clarinet before ANY value is real. And, a lot depends on how strongly you want to sell the thing. Holding out for the right buyer at your price may mean you never sell it. To me, that would be okay - I'd rather keep a nice horn like that IF it is how you described it. DAVE
 
http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=21

My response:

Made in 1936, not 1935 and the date distinction is important. Junkdude.com's got one in "perfect" (overhauled) shape for $1250 US, so that'd be your max number. Provided the horn's not high pitch. ("High pitch" is an intonation standard. Modern instruments are tuned to A=440hz or A=442hz. High pitch horns were A=457hz. Easily fixed on a trumpet. Impossible on a woodwind. If you can tune the horn, with an electronic tuner, to concert A=440hz and the horn plays several notes decently in tune, it's a modern pitched horn.)

* I can't tell if this horn is a Bb, C or A clarinet. I could only tell that from size comparison. That would also affect the value. Upwards, I'd think.
* There is a possibility that this horn's a early Buffet Harmony or E13, which would essentially halve the value. I don't really think it is, but other 1936 horns I've seen have slightly different keywork. I think it could be a Model 13 A clarinet based on that.
* The 1936 horns are supposed to be very good, as reflected by the value.
* I don't see any cracks, bands or pins on your horn, but I'd probably want to inspect in-person if I was going to buy it.
 
On current Buffet C clarinets the key cup just above left hand middle finger is placed to the side. This probably means it is not a C clarinet, although it's possible in the past Buffet didn't put this key to the side.
 
clarnibass said:
On current Buffet C clarinets the key cup just above left hand middle finger is placed to the side. This probably means it is not a C clarinet, although it's possible in the past Buffet didn't put this key to the side.
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I don't think it's a Buffet C, although the length would settle that argument. I have (what I've always assumed to be) a wooden Buffet C made/stencilled for G Deschamps, Paris, of a similar age to this one, and that cup on mine is quite offset too - simply because (were it in-line) the cup would foul the ring below it, there's simply not enough room.

Barrels that I've seen on C's are normally quite a bit shorter than Bb ones, this one looks proportionally Bb'ish.
 
cmelodysax said:
I don't think it's a Buffet C, although the length would settle that argument.
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Same if it's an A clarinet :).

IMO, it's probably Bb, just because none of the folks that have tried the horn commented anything different -- hey, my first comment would be, "Hey. You've got an A clarinet!" or whatever.

I've told Roland to check with a tuner. That'd also tell, really quick.

The high pitch comment is probably my biggest issue. Based on my experience with Buffet/Evette & Schaeffer saxophones, I know HP is not always marked. That makes me wary of any pre-WWII instrument. Additionally, the HP clarinets I've played with have "HP" very, very lightly stamped in an inconspicuous place.

Roland only mentions (in the e-mail he sent me) that the horn plays in tune with itself. That's not an indication of HP or LP.

My second biggest problem is that looking around the web for other pre-WWII Buffet clarinets, you'll see horns that look different. Considerably different. And different from each other. But the "throat" Eb is consistent -- and Roland's Eb is different. Based on the side keywork, I don't really doubt the age I quote, but it's a little disconcerting to see keywork that's not ... quite ... what you expect.

I'm not a vintage clarinet expert. I can do comparisons, though, and this does look an awful lot like the other Model 13s I've seen.
 
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Gentlemen,

I've read through your posts with great interest! I didn't realize my simple inquiry would create such a buzz! I wish I could give you all more info than what I have but I don't really know any more about the instrument than what I have told you. Since the overhaul it has been sitting on consignment in the store where it was repaired in Daytona Beach FL. The first opportunity I get I will take it to the local university clarinet teacher (quite talented I hear) armed with the information you have been discussing. Unfortunately it's not really nearby but now I think it might be worth the trip. Once I get the full story I'll get back to you and fill you in.
When will that be you might ask? I have no clue! I can contact that person soon but whether our schedules will work out so that we can get together, well, that's another story.

I mentioned in my email to Pete that I also had a wooden E. DELARUE flute made in Paris. Shall I start a new thread with a link to those photos or just continue on here? Either way I'll do so soon.

Roland
 
Yes, probably a Bb clarinet, I was just trying to spot something that showed why it's most likely not a C clarinet (since the post before said they can't be sure that it's not a C or A). Actually on my C clarinet, not a Buffet, this key cup is not offset, but on Buffets it's offset (at least those I've seen).

Pete, clarinet key names are described by two notes so they don't confuse. For the example the side Eb key is called the Eb/Bb key, as opposed to the clarion Eb key which is the Ab/Eb key. This way it's clear what key you mean. For the keys that can still be the same, for example F/C, you can say low F/C and thumb F/C, etc.

Nitai
 
Works for me, Nitai.

I generally give out a fingering, but for the alternate keywork, that gets a bit confusing for folks. Again, its good to have pics. (I shoulda downloaded 'em and circled what I was talking about and then re-upped, but life's too short.)

As extremely well noted, I'm a sax guy. I started out playing clarinet, though, and I was relatively decent as an actual pro clarinet player and teacher (yes, people paid me -- not well, mind you -- but still). I've actively avoided playing or discussing clarinet for at least 20 years and focused solely on sax, until I was asked to help out on this forum, so advice is always helpful.

But I think I'll upload those notes/staves when I get the chance :). It'll help me, at least.

Back on the initial topic, I think we can agree that it's a Buffet Model 13, but why does Roland's clarinet -- and Buffet Model 13 A clarinets -- not have that extra key? That's what I think is interesting. It's a throwback to a horn made about 10 years earlier.
 
I was once told by some clarinet player attempting to be a pedant that the fingerings should always be described in terms of the note that they produce in the clarinet register, and never by the corresponding one in the chalmeau register.

Of course, the person telling me this could not spell "chalmeau", so what are you going to do? I generally err on the side of caution and use both the chalmeau and the clarinet descriptions, just to be on the safe side. (It also allows me to show off my ability to spell "chalmeau".)
 
SOTSDO said:
Of course, the person telling me this could not spell "chalmeau", so what are you going to do?
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Couldn't he just call it the low register...? :)

Pete, I just commented on how keys are called, but didn't actually read your post thoroughly. Now I read it and realize that it's not really clear what you mean by throat Eb. Are you talking about the key which on your first photo, seems to cover an extra key connected to the second ring hinge rod (a mechanism I've never personally seen before)? If this is the key, I (and many others) call it the Eb/Bb banana key (because on most clarinets it has a banana shape). Some people call it the (Eb/Bb) sliver key. The similar key on the lower joint can also be called banana/sliver B/F# key, but many times it's just called the B/F# trill key (only because the regular Eb/Bb key is also sort of a trill key).

Or did I understand you wrong about what Eb key you are talking about?

Nitai
 
(my post never posted yesterday .. hmmm )

anyways. it certainly looks like a Bb to me.

Junkdude tries to get premium prices for his clarinets. AND he also has consignments which a seller wants that much for an instrument. So I would not go with his prices as an approximate value. PLUS, he offers a warranty, return, etc on items that he sells. And he may stock something in inventory for a very long time before he sells it.

Pre R13 clarinets are normally in the $400ish range on eBay. Example is my FullBoehm 1950 Buffet which I bought for around $480ish just about 9 months ago In excellent condition. But with the current economic climate even R13s have dropped in value.

Selling clarinets it is usually not worth it to get it overhauled as sometimes the overhaul price plus the price of the base instrument is usually less than the sale price. But it all depends.

Realistically $1200 i think would be a high price to ask for it. Even half that would be too much IMHO on a personal sale. But you never know.

I bought my Buffet 1925 A clarinet for $300ish. It is also a model without the throat adjuster screw. But the seller didn't know it was an A. "A"s are easily visually recognizable by the extra space between the first 2 ring fingers on the right hand.
 
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clarnibass said:
Couldn't he just call it the low register...? :)

Pete, I just commented on how keys are called, but didn't actually read your post thoroughly. Now I read it and realize that it's not really clear what you mean by throat Eb. Are you talking about the key which on your first photo, seems to cover an extra key connected to the second ring hinge rod (a mechanism I've never personally seen before)? If this is the key, I (and many others) call it the Eb/Bb banana key (because on most clarinets it has a banana shape). Some people call it the (Eb/Bb) sliver key. The similar key on the lower joint can also be called banana/sliver B/F# key, but many times it's just called the B/F# trill key (only because the regular Eb/Bb key is also sort of a trill key).

Or did I understand you wrong about what Eb key you are talking about?

Nitai
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You've got it. Nice summary :).
 
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SteveSklar said:
Junkdude tries to get premium prices for his clarinets. AND he also has consignments which a seller wants that much for an instrument. So I would not go with his prices as an approximate value. PLUS, he offers a warranty, return, etc on items that he sells. And he may stock something in inventory for a very long time before he sells it.
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I've talked with Junkdude before. Nice guy. Attempted to buy a horn from him, once, that was slightly more expensive than what I thought it was worth (in my opinion), but that point was arguable.

1. I agree with a lot of this: the warranty, return, etc. are "value added options" but, as I've mentioned elsewhere, those "value added options" don't seem to add that much to the overall price anymore.

2a. Please note that I did say that I'd consider $1250 the MAXIMUM value of one of these horns in perfect shape.

2b. I don't necessarily agree that Junkdude overcharges. Most of his prices look relatively sane for clarinets, just based on my comparison shopping on other places. Do note, however, I mentioned that the clarinet on Junkdude was fully overhauled and looked to be in prime shape. Roland's is worn and still looks like it needs new pads. Wichitaband -- which is known for relatively high prices, in my experience -- also has Model 13s that are 30-50% more expensive than Junkdude's.

eBay has a matched pair of Buffets from 1938 -- again note that the A clarinet doesn't have the key I keep talking about -- for $2397 US. Currently.

I think that a lot of R13s, even, sell for too cheap on eBay. Good thing for buyers, bad thing for sellers. I told Roland that I wouldn't pay $1200 for that clarinet. I'd buy a used Yamaha 62 and be happier with it for less than half what people are asking for the Model 13.

Your mileage always will vary with instrument value.

3. Junkdude's clarinet does have that extra key I keep talking about. Considering I don't have Buffet's 1936 line up in front of me, that little key could indicate a "step up" model or some other factory custom mod making that horn worth more than Roland's. Or it might make no difference. Note that there's a different 1936 Buffet on Junkdude's website that looks kinda like a Selmer Centered Tone, so there may have been multiple clarinet models available from Buffet in 1936 or everyone's wrong and the s/n is misstamped :).
 
that little key you see under the sliver key .. if you also notice .. it's a partial boehm clarinet with a ring on the 3rd LH key. The C#/G# is on the lower joint. My 1925 A is this way .. so is my full boehm.

So the models are basically:
1 - Regular Bb
2 - Partial Boehm Bb - with the little key, ringed UJ 3rd ring, articulated C#/G# with LJ sliver (or w/o lower joint sliver on slighlty eariler models)
3 - full boehm with all the extra keys

I mention ebay alot on price because most people associate with it and want to sell their instruments there. Thus .... ebay price of $xxx

selling locally may get more money - though buyers may also associate with eBay $$
 
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