Ken Burns - Jazz (2000)

Ken Burns Jazz EDIT

I have found that any topic covered by Ken Burns tends to enrage the extremes of the opinion spectrum, but they suit those in the solid middle just fine. And, while I don't bother viewing any of his stuff any longer (as the topics that interest me are covered in too elementary a fashion, while those that don't aren't worth the time), I don't down those who do view them.

A case in point is his original treatment of the American Civil War. While large swaths of the "action" had to be left on the editing room floor, he still managed to distill the essence of the causes, the prevalent trends in military and civilian life, and an analysis of what could be learned from it all, into an easy to view series of episodes that were available to all. Ditto his treatment of baseball.

While I know that much of jazz came from the black experience, there seemed to be an "all black musicians, all the time" characteristic to the series, at least from the two or three elements that viewed. (He did give Paul Whiteman credit, as he did Benny Goodman.)

As for the less that commendable elements of the "dark" side of music as shown by the series, I have to point out that such a legend as Gerry Mulligan doped his way through the height of his career. While lifestyles may fascinate some, I try to keep them separate from the music as much as I can.

But, that too may just be a "specialist" complaint, and I may be ignoring the "main stream" of jazz.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
SOTSDO said:
While I know that much of jazz came from the black experience, there seemed to be an "all black musicians, all the time" characteristic to the series, at least from the two or three elements that viewed. (He did give Paul Whiteman credit, as he did Benny Goodman.)

As for the less that commendable elements of the "dark" side of music as shown by the series, I have to point out that such a legend as Gerry Mulligan doped his way through the height of his career. While lifestyles may fascinate some, I try to keep them separate from the music as much as I can.

But, that too may just be a "specialist" complaint, and I may be ignoring the "main stream" of jazz.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. I watched the whole series, and my kids got me the accompanying book for Christmas back then.

White jazz musicians were mostly neglected in his treatment. Bix, Brubeck, Evans, Condon, Getz, etc., played significant roles. With sparse or no mention of such players the treatment falls way short of being comprehensive and paints a false picture.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I dunno. I've watched all of two episodes and it was a rather long bit about big bands, specifically Benny Goodman.

I enjoyed it, though, and may rent it, sometime. I love me my Netflix.
 
I don't think any analysis of jazz will ever be received with a positive reaction from all sides. Ken Burns may have put too much emphasis on Louis and Duke, but the subject is huge and rich in detail.
I like to put the jive filter on high and see what I can learn that I didn't know before.
 
I have the DVD set. I enjoyed the first part but when the heroin-addled bebop era was covered, I turned off. DAVE
 
As someone whose knowledge of jazz history was spotty at best, I found the Burns' special very engaging----guess I'm one of the large "middle" referred to earlier. It was especially helpful in pointing me toward artists and styles that I have subsequently sought out for more extensive listening and learning.

As to Netflix----I'm a fan! Almost never bother with real time TV, and have cut my cable cost to the barest minimum required for my internet connection.

Regards and Happy New Year!
Ruth
 
SOTSDO said:
While I know that much of jazz came from the black experience, there seemed to be an "all black musicians, all the time" characteristic to the series, at least from the two or three elements that viewed. (He did give Paul Whiteman credit, as he did Benny Goodman.)
Click to expand...
FWIW, even if I didn't watch a couple episodes of this Ken Burns' thing, I know that -- from my grandparents-in-law and from historical documents/footage -- you had your music for whites and music for blacks and that if you wanted "black music" to become really popular, there needed to be a "white music" crossover -- like Elvis doing covers of music from great black musicians, etc. You can argue, which I think Ken Burns hints at, that this relationship was a bit more parasitic than symbiotic, but there was a relationship.

In the "Jazz" episode I watched, for example, there was talk about the white record exec that tried to pull together black artists that were "unknown" and get them to record on his label, because this exec really, really wanted to get the music out there.

And, of course, the other segment I watched was primarily about Benny Goodman, but I didn't watch the whole series.

[Admin_Hat=on]
I'm sorry to mention this, but I will.

I know that any topic that happens to mention "race" will start getting people a tad uptight. I ask that everyone remember our forum rules, which can be boiled down to "play nice" and "look at every post in the BEST possible light".
[/Admin_Hat]
 
I watched the whole thing and really enjoyed it. I think that Ken Burns dug down to the root of the matter, and I take my hat off to him. And I really enjoyed George James's playing of the F mezzo on some of the Louis Armstrong segments. His playing was quite virtuosic, IMHO.

Julian
 
sideC said:
I watched the whole thing and really enjoyed it. I think that Ken Burns dug down to the root of the matter, and I take my hat off to him. And I really enjoyed George James's playing of the F mezzo on some of the Louis Armstrong segments. His playing was quite virtuosic, IMHO.
Click to expand...
Whoa, I missed the F mezzo, assuming I got that far. Now I'll really have to watch it twice. Maybe the second time I'll fast forward through the painful alcohol and drug abuse stuff.
 
Since I indrectly started this topic for getting Mrs. Gandalfe on Netflix and Mr. Gandalfe on Ken Burns I feel a desire to throw in my two cents.

The Good:
Ken Burns made an amazing documentary and it's 17 hours long! I'v seen it twice in the last 3 months and it really is a masterpiece highlighting the innovations, emotions and personalities throught the evolution of the music that is loosely grouped together and called jazz. I see absolutely no biast based on race although the evolution and tension based on race and segregation in the U.S. is not ignored in this series, from both sides of the fence. Most everyone is fairly represented for their contributions and no matter how much more Ken Burns could have added to it we would have wanted more. 17 hours!

The Bad:
Spoielr Alert! I strongly felt that the documentary was saying in the final episode that jazz died entering into the 1970s and Wynton was the new savior of Jazz. Love and respect Wynton as I do, I disagree with this concept but the 17 hours needed a snappy upbeat ending and it was Wynton. I can accept that. Stan Kenton and his extension Maynard Ferguson were both left out of this documentary completely and although I speculate why, I won't here. Not even mentioned once.
 
Gandalfe said:
Whoa, I missed the F mezzo, assuming I got that far. Now I'll really have to watch it twice. Maybe the second time I'll fast forward through the painful alcohol and drug abuse stuff.
Click to expand...

Yes, it goes by pretty quick, but Pops is leading a band with 2 or 3 saxes and maybe 3 or 4 brass. Georgie James states a beautiful melody and Louis comes in with the vocal. The saxes play a very intricate line under the vocal and it's flawless! I can't remember the tune, but it's an early standard, medium up tempo. Man, I almost fell off my chair. They do at least one more tune with this same band and George James just plays his can off, leading the section. I'm going from memory here, haven't seen it in years.

Julian
 
acglass said:
Since I indrectly started this topic for getting Mrs. Gandalfe on Netflix and Mr. Gandalfe on Ken Burns I feel a desire to throw in my two cents.

The Good:
Ken Burns made an amazing documentary and it's 17 hours long! I'v seen it twice in the last 3 months and it really is a masterpiece highlighting the innovations, emotions and personalities throught the evolution of the music that is loosely grouped together and called jazz. I see absolutely no biast based on race although the evolution and tension based on race and segregation in the U.S. is not ignored in this series, from both sides of the fence. Most everyone is fairly represented for their contributions and no matter how much more Ken Burns could have added to it we would have wanted more. 17 hours!

The Bad:
Spoielr Alert! I strongly felt that the documentary was saying in the final episode that jazz died entering into the 1970s and Wynton was the new savior of Jazz. Love and respect Wynton as I do, I disagree with this concept but the 17 hours needed a snappy upbeat ending and it was Wynton. I can accept that. Stan Kenton and his extension Maynard Ferguson were both left out of this documentary completely and although I speculate why, I won't here. Not even mentioned once.
Click to expand...
I really think that any documentary on just about any subject is not going to be too in-depth and there will always be people saying that some facet of the genre wasn't represented. For instance, the majority of us woodwind players will probably mention that $player wasn't even mentioned and he's been central to jazz for $years. Or some such.

As another example, I could talk about the history of the saxophone from a classical viewpoint and I'm sure that some folks will say, "Sigurd Rascher? Who's that?" It just depends on what the watcher's preferences are.

Finally, I think that if you're doing a documentary, you need to have a theme to keep everything focused. Maybe Ken Burns' focus isn't what musicians want, but what the general public wants :).

I'd like to watch more. It was entertaining.
 
Quality wise, the jazz series was of a piece with the ones on the Civil War and baseball, the only two of which I have watched every episode. I have read criticism of the thrust and content of the ACW version, even though there were "detours" off of the main line (the theme, if you will), but with only so many hours of time to place stuff, something has to end up on the cutting room floor (metaphorically, these days).

However, I've watched so little of network stuff (including PBS; we generally watch Lawrence Welk and Antiques Road Show) that skipping the majority of the jazz series was almost a given. Such is life...
 
SOTSDO said:
...we generally watch Lawrence Welk and Antiques Road Show)...
Click to expand...
That's coincidental. I watch them too. I friend of mine from high school (Noel Barrett) is often featured on Antiques Road Show. Another friend and neighbor (Don Staples) is in almost every Welk rerun.

Sorry for the hijack. Now back to our regularly scheduled confab.

I found disproportionate coverage of Chick Webb in the Burns treatment. It was almost all about him for a few episodes as I recall. Maybe the Apollo days were more significant than I realize.

Many giants of jazz, who were not only great players but also famous and influential to the music in the 1930s were mostly ignored. Jack Teagarden comes to mind.

I need to root out the book and CD set my kids gave me for Christmas. I seem to remember that a lot of what didn't make it into the documentary gets better coverage in the book.
 
pete said:
In the "Jazz" episode I watched, for example, there was talk about the white record exec that tried to pull together black artists that were "unknown" and get them to record on his label, because this exec really, really wanted to get the music out there.
Click to expand...
That was John Hammond, who was also Benny Goodman's agent and brother-in-law. He was influential in bringing all aspects of jazz and swing into the mainstream. His contributions are often overlooked.
 
Al Stevens said:
I found disproportionate coverage of Chick Webb in the Burns treatment. It was almost all about him for a few episodes as I recall. Maybe the Apollo days were more significant than I realize.
Click to expand...

Al, I would think that the coverage of Chick Webb might be due to his long residency as the house band at Harlem's Savoy Ballroom, as opposed to his sporadic dates at the Apollo. The Savoy had two bandstands, and Chick's band was known as a litmus test for the NYC big name swing bands of the day. I remember talking to old time musicians like Jonah Jones and Eddie Barefield, and listening to them describe how Chick's band cut the Goodman band and the Basie band, and many other bigger name organizations who had the nerve to occupy that other bandstand. Plus you have to throw in the fact that Chick brought Ella Fitzgerald onto the scene.
The dance scene in NYC still revolves around what went on at the Savoy those many years ago.

Julian
 
acglass said:
The Bad:
Spoielr Alert! I strongly felt that the documentary was saying in the final episode that jazz died entering into the 1970s and Wynton was the new savior of Jazz. Love and respect Wynton as I do, I disagree with this concept but the 17 hours needed a snappy upbeat ending and it was Wynton. I can accept that. Stan Kenton and his extension Maynard Ferguson were both left out of this documentary completely and although I speculate why, I won't here. Not even mentioned once.
Click to expand...

ac, I was there when Wynton blew up, I knew him when he was walking around getting his first NYC gigs, and he was sure enough playing his can off back then, but he wasn't yet the Wynton that we all know and love today.
Wynton was gigging in the pit at an off Broadway theater when he got the gig with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers. He replaced Valery Ponamarev in the trumpet chair. The rest of the band personel changed around the same time with James Williams on piano, Charles Fambrough on bass, and Bill Pierce on tenor. Bobby Watson was the only hold over from the old band. He would later be replaced in the alto chair by Branford Marsalis.

This was a very good band, and Wynton emerged as it's star soloist. He was a little guy with a small face and a very large afro, and a pair of gold rimmed glasses with real big lenses. He was wearing these shirts with his pants pulled way up near his chest. He was really sort of a Steve Urkel looking kind of guy. But he was playing the stew out of the trumpet. So, at some point early on, Wynton totally changed his onstage persona. He got this really slick short razor cut haircut, got the custom tailored suit with the French cuff custom tailored shirt and the super expensive Italian alligator loafers, lost the Urkel glasses. And continued to play his butt off on the horn.

So Art's band all started to dress very well. Plus, the band was playing much like the great Messengers bands of the 1950's and "60s. The bands with Lee Morgan and Freddie, with Hank Mobley and Wayne Shorter, Bobby Timmons and Walter Davis. Fambrough's bass was nearing the level of Jymie Meritt or Reggie Workman, and of course Art Blakey was always there. So, you have a great band playing down to earth, straight ahead jazz. As Art used to say, "swing hard and take no prisoners." So, following a long period when much of the jazz was pretty for out, or mixed in (up) with rock, I think they found the formula for success.

So my opinion of the idea that Wynton led the multitudes out of the darkness? I would say that he and Art Blakey and the Messengers had a lot to do with bringing media attention back to the music. But the music had never really gone away.

Julian
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom