NAPBIRT Saxophone University

[jbtsax]

I have made my best argument for why I believe the small hole gauge in conjunction with a caliper to be the most accurate tool for measuring saxophone key heights accurate to within a hundredth of an inch that is:

1) relatively inexpensive

2) easy to operate

3) practical for all types and sizes of keys

If anyone can demonstrate a more effective or accurate tool that matches this criteria, then I would welcome that additional information.

 

[simso]

It is also hard to impossible to gauge how inaccurate a process will be by drawings, an example is, you show the fulcrum point of the arm parallel with the top of the tone hole, many instances the fulcrum point is distinctively above and distinctively below.

Can you tell me what you're referring to with this?

Ive taken the liberty of editing johns picture to explain what I was referring to. The upper and lower stack relationship of key pivot point to tone hole surface differ quite dramatically between saxophones, even on the same sax. I have not changed the arch of each key displayed to compensate for the new approach angle, simply edited a picture to show what Im referrring too.

 

[LowThudd]

Ive taken the liberty of editing johns picture to explain what I was referring to. The upper and lower stack relationship of key pivot point to tone hole surface differ quite dramatically between saxophones, even on the same sax. I have not changed the arch of each key displayed to compensate for the new approach angle, simply edited a picture to show what Im referrring too.

As I see it, this disagreement is simple to solve. Having rebuilt a few engines, transmissions. Having studied auto mechanics, welding and machining in college. As well as working as a fabricator at an electric vehicle R&D facility in the early 90's, IMHO the ball gauge is more accurate. For one simple reason: The ball gauge is widest at only one point. It can only be "misread" if it is not perfectly perpendicular. However, once the measurement has be established, it can easily be rechecked to follow the "measure twice, cut once" principal. A wedge or step gauge can be misread by inserting in any one of several misaligned ways: It can be tilted, either laterally or longitudinally. It can be difficult to measure at the exact apex of the opening. And, it is not as easily repeatable as the ball gauge.

At first the disagreement was whether it was necessary or not. To this, I have no experience. But I know for a fact that in industries that require accuracy of +-0.001", a wedge or step gauge would NEVER be used in place of something as accurate and simple as a caliper, vernier, ball gauge etc.

 

[LowThudd]

In addition, since I began working on cars I have always used wire type gauges for measuring sparkplugs, rather than step gauges for the exact same reason. The wire is widest at only one point, and can only be incorrectly read on one plane. While the sparkplug step gauges are easy tilt on several different planes. If a plug gap is off by 0.003" or more, the car doesn't run right. Every mechanic I have ever dealt with uses wire for this same reason, and all my instructors have mandated that. Especially the instructors with race cars that did sub 10 second 1/4 mile times at the track. :-D

 

[simso]

Hi mate, no dis-agreement here. Apologise if it appears so. John uses the ball gauges for his own references. My discussion has taken over regarding the measuring as per yamahas listed tolerances. (which I dont do)

When working with concentric surfaces its very easy to use verniers ball gauges and the sorts or varients there of.

However in this scenario the goal " according to yamaha" is to measure the distance from the edge of the tone hole to the point of contact on the pad, Im going to show the ball gauge inserted into the wedge shaped gap, the two surfaces being measured are in a different plane to each other, the ball gauge cannot achieve this, it can datum of the tone hole edge but refernces against the pad inside the area of interest, if you then pucker the pad a bit like it would be with the resonator fitted and this exaspertaes the situation even more.

 

[LowThudd]

Hi mate, no dis-agreement here. Apologise if it appears so. John uses the ball gauges for his own references. My discussion has taken over regarding the measuring as per yamahas listed tolerances. (which I dont do)

When working with concentric surfaces its very easy to use verniers ball gauges and the sorts or varients there of.

However in this scenario the goal " according to yamaha" is to measure the distance from the edge of the tone hole to the point of contact on the pad, Im going to show the ball gauge inserted into the wedge shaped gap, the two surfaces being measured are in a different plane to each other, the ball gauge cannot achieve this.

The beauty of the ball gauge is that it CAN conform to whatever angle you need it to. In your demo, this is not shown. The ball can be centered at it's widest point to the largest gap, which in my mind at least, is the measurement is required.

 

[simso]

If anyone can demonstrate a more effective or accurate tool that matches this criteria, then I would welcome that additional information.

You can make the ball gauge as shown work, you would however have to gring the leading edge of the ball away so as to ensure it would not contact unwanted areas of the pad

 

[LowThudd]

You can make the ball gauge as shown work, you would however have to gring the leading edge of the ball away so as to ensure it would not contact unwanted areas of the pad

The wedge would be even less effective, as the contact point is flat. If a ball is too flat(and needs to be modified), a wedge would be worse. A step gauge may work, but only if the bottom of the gauge is positively aligned with the step. Meaning that there must be markings on the bottom of the step gauge to make certain that the proper plane of measurement is used.

 

[simso]

The wedge would be even less effective, as the contact point is flat. If a ball is too flat(and needs to be modified), a wedge would be worse. A step gauge may work, but only if the bottom of the gauge is positively aligned with the step. Meaning that there must be markings on the bottom of the step gauge to make certain that the proper plane of measurement is used.

Yes you could be right, a wedge may be less accurate, the ball can and would work if you could remove the section that fouls the area not in question, hence the picture with the leading edge scalloped away.

I only know this becuase I used to be a jet engine mechanic, spent many years stripping and rebuilding jet engines for aircraft like the F111, F18 and so forth and had to modify many tools to make them capable of taking measurements in areas that were demed "un-measurable"

 

[jbtsax]

The purpose of this post is to try to clear up some inaccuracy and misinformation that has found its way into this thread that has become a controversial topic, much to my chagrin.

One of the reasons stated for measuring key heights was to be able to set it up in accordance with Yamahas written specs. . .

This statement is true. Yamaha's recommended (key) ventings for most Yamaha saxes has measurements in 10ths of a millimeter (.0039"). For those who are interested a pdf. file is attached below. A "step gauge" or cardboard wedge does not allow for this level of accuracy. A small bore gauge measured with a caliper does.

The difference is not 0.0035" but is in fact closer to 0.048" which is far greater, 0.048" is a huge amount and is the difference between a note playing well and a note being stuffy

There has simply been no evidence presented in support of the statement that my measurement of .0035" is wrong and your stated margin of error .048" is correct.

To this end reference Yamaha, yamaha do not teach this, this was accordingly taught by someone who has just started working for yamaha, I know this for a fact as I am a certified Yamaha Repairer.

Jeff Peterson has been at the Yamaha Los Angeles Atelier Woodwinds and Brass Center for several years. Yamaha, as such does not teach repair courses, but Jeff Peterson who is one of the finest woodwind repair techs in the U.S. does. His workshops, in part, are sponsored by the Yamaha Corp.

Agreed, step wedges make good aproximate measurements, by your displayed process, 0.005" is pretty good for 30cents worth of cardboard to make the tool out of

There is no way a cardboard wedge is accurate to .005"

It is also hard to impossible to gauge how inaccurate a process will be by drawings, an example is, you show the fulcrum point of the arm parallel with the top of the tone hole, many instances the fulcrum point is distinctively above and distinctively below.

I disagree. The scale drawings below created to scale to an accuracy of .001" demonstrate the effects of moving the fulcrum of the key upon measuring the key height distance perpendicular to the plane of the tonehole surface.

All process's are approximations and I think all process's have a relatively high degree of inaccuracy. But all IMO.

This overly broad statement does not even merit a response.

Hi mate, no dis-agreement here. Apologise if it appears so.

??? I have read disagreement with practically every statement I have made in this thread.

However in this scenario the goal " according to yamaha" is to measure the distance from the edge of the tone hole to the point of contact on the pad

This is in error. There is nothing "according to Yamaha". I presented my definition of key height to clarify the discussion so we would not be comparing apples to oranges.

You can make the ball gauge as shown work, you would however have to gring the leading edge of the ball away so as to ensure it would not contact unwanted areas of the pad

Again I disagree. The illustrations below show that the use of the spherical ball at the top of the gauge is effective and quite accurate given any common key/hinge orientation. Please note the fact that the accuracy of the small hole gauge actually improves as the axis of the key is either lowered or raised from the position in the original illustration in a previous post.

The fine "hairline" drawings that are a bit hard to see were left that way purposefully to emphasize the accuracy to which this illustration was created.

 

[SOTSDO]

The bar continues to rise here - next, we will be seeing drawings with gradients and shadows. I stand in awe...

 

[pete]

The bar continues to rise here - next, we will be seeing drawings with gradients and shadows. I stand in awe...

I'm actually hoping for 3D. Closing thread for another moment.

Ah. Better. Reopened.

 

[Groovekiller]

Wow. This has gotten deep. I've been following every post and finally I asked myself, "Why?"

It's a freakin' saxophone. It's not brain surgery. The owner may very well disagree with your measurements, and it's HIS HORN. Listen, don't dictate.

The repair business is a service industry. I admire those who arm themselves with the best, most logical and most recent information about how to make a horn play at its best, but ultimately, we shoud do what the artist/cusomer asks us to do. When the customer is insane or unrealistic, say NO! Otherwise, provide the service they ask for.

 

[LowThudd]

It's a freakin' saxophone. It's not brain surgery.

*clap-clap* Best quote of the thread. Being new to woodwind, and also to repadding my own instrument. I was starting to get a little worried. Envisioning needing to buy a bunch of books and tools just to get my C Mels somewhat intonated properly. I did assume that this *might* be a bit more than I need to worry about on my first two repads/rebuilds, at least for now.

I feel a bit better now. lol

 

[Helen]

The owner may very well disagree with your measurements, and it's HIS [or her] HORN. Listen, don't dictate.

Thanks Randy. Excellent point. Here's an example from my real, world experience.

I recently had my J.K. Toneking tenor completely restored. It was the horn's first overhaul ever since it was built in 1957. The one owner who had the sax before me, fancied himself a bit of a tech, and did all the pads, corks, and felts himself. However, nothing else was ever done on the sax.

When I went to pick up my sax from my tech--who had never done a restoration for me before, but does keep all my babies working in primo condition--I didn't like the key height openings. They were too closed for the rocker in me. My tech took no time at all changing things for me... including the palm keys which were blowing flat. Suddenly the horn played perfectly in tune for my mouthpiece and my way of playing.

 

[jbtsax]

It's a freakin' saxophone. It's not brain surgery. .

 

[kevgermany]

Sanity returns with Feldman???? lol


sorry Pete, I need to do this.

Now my question for you kev, having read the posts you have posted on this topic, is your question unbiased, have you actually tried this ball gauge out in this scenario. Or are you continung the topic for other gains.

And now my answer to you - you've seen the way this thread panned out. I saw it coming and warned.

Judge me by my actions and posts here and in other forums. Not by your own.

 

[pete]

I've got to give thanks for Abby Normal's brain.

"Damn your eyes!" "Tooooo late."

Great movie. IIRC, it came out the same year as Blazing Saddles. You can IMDB it, if you're less lazy than me.

---------------

The repair business is a service industry. I admire those who arm themselves with the best, most logical and most recent information about how to make a horn play at its best, but ultimately, we shoud do what the artist/cusomer asks us to do. When the customer is insane or unrealistic, say NO! Otherwise, provide the service they ask for.

Actually, if the customer asks for something, even if it's insane or unrealistic, you do it. Unless you really can't because it's physically impossible. Of course, you should expect more money, too.

Car-related story:

The very last surviving Studebaker model is called the Avanti. It was so popular that some folks bought the Avanti tooling, etc. and made their own car, the Avanti II. The Avanti II was custom made. You asked for it, you got it. Allegedly, one customer asked them to have the dash and seats orange and the side-panels and carpet green. The person taking the order said he thought it was disgusting, but they'd do it. It actually came out nice, according to the Avanti tech ....

Hey, you can have a Whopper made your way. I wonder what they'd do at BK if I asked for a Whopper, hold the bun.

FWIW, I'm not one to tell a tech what to do, primarily because I don't have enough knowledge to even begin to do so. However, I have said, "$Thing is broken. Please fix. By the way, I'm aware that the crook was relacquered. Please leave it alone."

 

[jbtsax]

There have been times that I have recommended that the customer try another repair shop, because I was reluctant to do what they asked. In some instances it was to replace just one or two pads when the instrument their student plays needed a complete repad to even play a scale. The scenario goes like this:

-Band director tells parent the instrument needs repair for the student to succeed in band.

-Parent takes to repair shop in reputable music store XYZ-Music and insists on ineffective cheap repair.

-Band director informs parent that the instrument still won't play.

-Parent tells band director, "Well we took it to XYZ-Music and they said they fixed it".

-Band director thinks, "Hmmm I'm not doing business there any more."

The other scenario is when the customer brings in a poor quality brand X instrument and wants a complete all the bells and whistles overhaul. The repair shop could just do it and make a ton of money---but when it is finished it would still only be worth about 25% of what the repair cost and still be a POS brand X instrument. The repair is refused and the customer advised to put that same amount of money toward a quality brand of instrument.

In scenario 1 the reputation of the store or repair tech trumps "the customer is always right".

In scenario 2 the conscience of the repair tech trumps "the customer gets what he asks for no matter what".

This is just my opinion and everyone is free to conduct their business in any way they see fit.

 

[pete]

I think we've had a simular discussion in the past. Essentially real-life example:

A $person walks into your repair shop. He's got a Bundy II alto that's been run over by a truck. Twice. He tells you the obvious, "It plays a little flat. Ha."

Dead silence. You stare at him for a moment.

You look at the horn and say, "$Person, it would cost about $1.4 trillion to fix this horn and I'm not sure that'd play that well after that. I advise you to go to eBay and buy a minty Bundy II for $1.25 or upgrade to a better horn."

$Person nods thoughtfully while you're saying this and then says, "The horn was presented to me by my mother's father's sister's aunt's hairdresser. It has a lot of sentimental value. I can afford the $1.4 trillion."

What to do?

=================

I get the reputation point and I'm not sure there's a winning scenario. If sweet, love-able me was the band director, I'd ask the parental unit how much he spent on the repair. If the student had the aforementioned flattened Bundy II and the parent said he spent only $1.25 at XYZ to get it repaired, I'd understand that the parent was at fault, not the shop.

That's a perfect world, of course. Chances are pretty good that the band director doesn't know that a flattened Bundy II = moderately bad intonation. The reason I know this? I've been in a lot of school bands.