Picking up the bass clarinet

saxhound

saxhound

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I got a call today to play Guys & Dolls on the bari sax / bass clarinet book. I had to turn it down, since I don't play bass clarinet. I'm wondering how long it would take to become proficient enough to pull this off. It might be fun to do some pit band stuff.

I'm originally a clarinet player, and have been playing it for about 47 years. I was good enough back in high school days to make state honors band and regional orchestra, and I do keep up with it, but not as much as I focus on sax.

Assuming I got a decent horn and mouthpiece (and found the time to practice more than a couple hours a week), is this something I could pull off in a year or two?
 
With a good setup and familiarity with the soprano, you should be able to get around most show tunes fairly quickly. The problem is getting a good playing setup.

Lack of experience in how to voice things can make a decent setup difficult to play through, so the temptation would be to throw money at the problem. Or you may have all the right equipment, but it is out of spec and difficult to play.

Wait for Terry - SOTSDO - to wrote up a dissertation on the fundamentals of good Bass Clarinet, study it and you should be in fine shape.
 
I did this with less time on clarinet than you have. After fighting a totally overhauled LeBlanc Paris bass clarinet for three months, I called Kessler Music and got a Selmer Privilege that pretty much ended the problems I was having in the clarion and altissimo range.

So yes, I threw money at the issue even though the lightly used new instrument, used at NAMM for a year, came at an unbelievable price. I love the sound of the instrument but really, really need to spend more time on it besides a six show run, once a year.
 
saxhound said:
Assuming I got a decent horn and mouthpiece (and found the time to practice more than a couple hours a week), is this something I could pull off in a year or two?
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Obviously depends how much you practice and how much practice is specific for you (i.e. each person has a different amount they need to practice to get to the same "level"). Also depends what you want to "get". I'd say if you are a decent clarinet and saxophone player then you can probably play some musicals after a few months if you practice a little... or more than a little.

I have a student who is a saxophone player, not a clarinet player, and after a few months he plays pretty ok as far as embouchure. It's the throat note keys and 12th jump that are the biggest hurdles and since you play clarinet too those shouldn't be much a problem for you.

I don't think finding a good setup is really a problem. Once you have a decent mouthpiece and matching reed strength you shouldn't have a problem. Something like a Behn Overture or Fobes Debut/Nova is fine. A Vandoren or Selmer can be fine also, but they have so many models it's a little trickier to decide which one you like. I sometimes see a bass clarinet to repair and when it's ready, the owner tries it and then says how they have some issues with the mouthpiece/reed. Then I try it and no problem. I try with their setup and no problem, as long as it's a decent setup (almost always is). IMO once you get comfortable you can try other setups and see what improvements they give you. You can get a supposedly much better and more expensive mouthpiece but to be honest I've tried some of those that I didn't like any better than a good "student" mouthpiece.
 
For what it's worth as you search for a bass clarinet ... I complimented a local pro (one of those guys who plays anything with a reed or two on it) on his bass clarinet sound and asked what he was playing. He laughed and showed me his Vito. He claimed the secret was the Bay neck and mouthpiece.
 
Thanks for all the good responses.

Yikes! - Selmer Privilege = $8,539 (model 65) or $9,979 (model 67). For that price, I would rather get a Selmer Series III baritone sax! The Selmer 1430 or Kessler Custom seem quite a bit more affordable - obviously student horns, but perhaps enough for getting started.
 
saxhound said:
The Selmer 1430 or Kessler Custom seem quite a bit more affordable - obviously student horns, but perhaps enough for getting started.
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I would think so, too. FWIW I play on a Jupiter and have an Artley/Bundy as a backup, and get compliments for my oomph. Which is at least partly due to my Fobes Nova mouthpiece, I'm sure.
 
Well...

Personally, I would avoid the Kessler, assuming that it's another relabeled Chinese example of hand craftsmanship. Others like them, I don't.

I've tried most horn that have come my way, and I continue to prefer the register linkage to the lower joint ("the double register key") over the unlinked register system. Both horns will play well enough, but the notes immediately above the break do not respond as well (for me) as they do on a properly regulated "double register key" horn.

However, the trick here is to get a horn that is properly set up and not further damaged by some ham-handed individual who borrows the horn, sets it down uncarefully (if that is a word) fashion, and then leaves you wondering why things aren't working right.

That "ham-handed individual" might just turn out to be you if you don't invest in a decent stand. Over the past twenty years, I have gradually gotten into the habit of either holding my bass, storing it in its properly altered case, or placing it in a proper bass clarinet stand. Those metal saucers on the lower joint are easily knocked out of line, and so is the long rod for the "double register key" mechanism. Take care of your bass, and it will take care of you.

As for the mouthpiece, you can fiddle around there with a lot less expense than with the horn. I'm currently playing a Selmer G lay with a relatively soft reed, this down from the C and C* lays and harder reeds of my youth. Push comes to shove, I prefer the softer reed when I'm playing a lot of sax.

However, I think that most will not bother to try as many mouthpieces and different types of reeds on the bass as they will on the soprano. Too expensive. Most also will not invest in a Bay neck, something that I find essential. Get one, and you can handle the bass clarinet embouchure as you would a clarinet one - without one, it's a lot more like playing tenor sax.

As for the show, Guys & Dolls is a great first show to start out on bass clarinet. I've played at least eight full productions of this show, both pro and am, and it's easy enough not to have to practice, but complicated enough to impress the locals.

Most of the time when you are on bass, you are chugging along like a string bass (and in the lower register). It will give you a good 'feel' for how the bass parts fit in with the vocals, particularly the female ones. And, if there is not a competent 'cello player in the group, they will thank you for your efforts at the end of the run.

There are somewhat tricky (for a newcomer to the horn) grace notes and intervals in "Marry The Man Today", but other than that it's pretty much within the reach of a beginner.
 
I wish I had this thread 4 months ago. I was performing Urinetown, which only has a few songs on Bass Clarinet, but coming from Soprano Sax and Clarinet, and not having a perfect setup, it was very uncomfortable.

Can you tell me more about the Bay Necks. I've looked everywhere on the internet, and haven't been able to locate a good dealer or much information on them. Are they not made anymore? Or special order? What is a fair price to be paid for it?

Thanks

Drew
Http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
 
I checked the bay website, but the neck doesn't appear there. I may e-mail and see what I can find out.

In general I get work on the upper reed books, but it's amazing what they throw the Bass Clarinet in with:

Chicago: Piccolo, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Soprano Sax, Tenor Sax
Follies: Flute, Clarinet, Tenor Sax, Bass Clarinet
How To Succeed in Business: Clarinet, Tenor Sax, Bass Clarinet
Wicked: Soprano Sax, Clarinet, Eb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet

(Note: I left out all the books with Bari Sax and/or Bassoon, because that's way too much money to spend right now, and I like to play flute.

I love the sound of the instrument though. Can't wait till I have a need to own one.

Drew
Http://www.youtube.com/user/DrewSorensenMusic
 
I sent an e-mail to the address on the Bay website. I'll post the response here when I get it.

$500 is a lot. I wonder if that's the going rate.

I'm playing a Fobes Nova, but might look into others. Anyone know the standard professional choices? I tend to favor short facings with medium tip openings.
 
That's the article...

... although it's only for the Bundy/Selmer USA models. The Selmer (Paris) version will set you back even more.

The newer top-end horns have trended away from the horrid flat to the ground reed angle, so if you go that route you might be able to do without Charlie's craftsmanship. But, not with the cheaper horns - sorry.

(I got mine long ago and far away, back when Charlie did most of his selling at the ICS shows. Back then, you could get a decent milk shake for a buck-fifty, and his necks, even the expensive ones, for a couple of C-notes.)

For the Bundy/Selmer USA, a workaround is to hold the horn at a tight angle so as to put the base of the peg under the front edge of your chair. This cants the crook end of the neck up a bit so you're not playing an ugly tenor any more.

Be advised that this approach is hard on both the wrists and the arms. And, it is very hard to accurately spot the peg under the chair in a hurry - not good for pit work. Also, you cannot play bass while holding a sax on your lap, taking quick horn changes completely out of the equation. I recommend it only as a test to see if the improvement in the neck angle will benefit your playing.
 
And...

...while the bass clarinet is rare in earlier shows, from about 1950 on, the composers and arrangers realized that it's the best blend with the female voice that has come down the pike to date. Since around about the debut of Guys & Dolls, it has been
de rigueur.

Apparently, the tone/'partials' of the horn fill in some sort of holes in the timbre of the typical female voice, adding something to make it all work better. Even a series of "potatoes" (whole notes, in Broadway arranger parlance) under the vocal line work to fill out the sound, far beyond what you would assume such a simple harmony line would add.

Pay attention to the dynamic markings and to the phrasing as she sings. The idea is to supplement what she's doing, but not to overpower it. Done right, it makes the difference between a decent tune and musical perfection.

(And, once in a great while, there is a part like that under Maria's sister's aria in West Side Story, found in the baritone/tenor/clarinet/bass clarinet book in most of the arrangements of that show. That's a great, all-encompassing part that runs from the lower reaches of the horn up to just below high C (which requires a well-set up horn to do well), and involves a counter-melody that's almost as prominent as that sung by the sister. The part is well articulated, and has quite a few dynamic changes in it as well. Too bad that there's so little sax in the book.)

Too bad that the horns are so expensive. I bought my "good" bass back when such things weren' all that expensive, in 1972 right after getting out of the service. Paid for it (all $1,500 or so) by taking out a loan from the credit union at work, then promptly earned enough money play music to pay it off before the loan was approved. You couldn't get away with that today.

Instead of buying a new horn, I would see if I could purchase a well maintained used pro model. The low Eb horns don't usually cost that much used, and you don't really need a low C horn for 99.99999% of what you will encounter. Get a good horn, get it overhauled by a competent technician, and then keep it in the case, in your hands or on a proper stand. Don't loan it out.

Oh, and get a Rock 'n' Roller compact cart. Your back will thank you.
 
I was lucky enough to have gotten the only show with low D's in it (Urinetown). I only had the Yamaha plastic to Eb, so just played it up the octave. We were sans Trombone, so was missing the key interval in a lot of the harmonies. "Follow your heart" really needs both horns in it. That show has some really fun soprano clarinet parts, and it really is inspiring if you get it right. The show original pit is only 5 musicians I believe (Piano, Bass, Drums, Reed, Trombone).

I aim to get the Buffet 1193 when I'm ready, to be prepared if I do get the call for low D's again. Will try to buy it used, I think the going rate is between $5,000 to $6,000.

I agree about a no loan policy on horns. This started when a collegue (not even friend, but you'll understand why he was even more relegated) bent my Mark VI tenor neck. Haven't lent out a horn again, and never will. Was a really expensive mistake.

I tried the pin under the chair thing during Urinetown, but it's impractical, and only confounds the issue. If you can't get a neck strap on, this will slow you're fingers to a crawl, and makes it's severly unbalanced. I did have the pin out long, and played more up to the mouthpiece than I would on clarinet to help with the angle. I have to admit I never did get it right.

Oh, and one more thing about the Yamaha Plastic Bass Clarinet. It was really sharp. I had the neck pulled out an inch, and was still lipping down on some notes. I'm by no means a Bass Clarinet soloist, but that's what I felt. Maybe it was my approach.
 
saxhound said:
The Selmer 1430 or Kessler Custom seem quite a bit more affordable - obviously student horns, but perhaps enough for getting started.
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Yes, I agree with tictactux. You (i.e. anyone) can sound great on almost any half decent bass clarinet (as opposed to those which are less than half decent, some are truely awful). The student models like Vito, (old) Bundy, new Conn-Selmer, student Yamaha 221, older student Yamaha 220 (Vito copy), Jupiter from the last few years and maybe others.

I agree with SOTSDO about the Chinese ones. Some like them, but I have tried many, both low Eb and low C, and I can't imagine any of the ones offered (e.g. Kessler) is significantly different from those I've tried. They all just had too many issues IMO. Though some of the student models are better than others e.g. I like Yamaha and Jupiter significantly more than Vito. The only advantage of some Chinese models is giving you a low C at a low price. I'd take a better instrument to low Eb than a poor one with low C.

I also agree about the the double register key (as opposed to just a seperate throat Bb key) being better. In general at least, since the worst bass clarinet I've ever played actually had the double reg key. They do allow better response and intonation that is a little difficult otherwise.

For example, see the attached example. This can be next to impossible to play legato (not tonguing the higher notes) at, let's say around 100+ BPM, on some of the student instruments. This is obviously not necessarily a reason to buy a pro Selmer or Buffet as a beginner, but it could be, or at least at some point. There are other reasons of course.

SOTSDO said:
Instead of buying a new horn, I would see if I could purchase a well maintained used pro model. The low Eb horns don't usually cost that much used, and you don't really need a low C horn for 99.99999% of what you will encounter.
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Yes, a used pro model can be a great option. Re the second part, it depends who is "you" and what you encounter. I use the extra low notes very often. I actually don't remember the last time I've played a concert without using any of them. Not that everyone else would, but it's up to every player to realize what they want to play.
 
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DrewSorensenMusic said:
Oh, and one more thing about the Yamaha Plastic Bass Clarinet. It was really sharp. I had the neck pulled out an inch, and was still lipping down on some notes. I'm by no means a Bass Clarinet soloist, but that's what I felt. Maybe it was my approach.
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I found some of those played a little sharp but not a major problem. You had to pull an inch out and still lip down?! How sharp was it? How sharp were the throat notes like A and G#, which would be lowered much than 'long' notes by pulling out. For example, the different in tone hole distance between throat A and throat G# is about an inch. So pulling the neck an inch out would lower the throat A by a semi tone... and you still had to lip down? This would make the difference between 440 and 442 almost non-existent.
 
One thing to keep in mind when considering a new neck for your bass clarinet is that while a steeper mouthpiece angle may be beneficial for your head position, it will in many cases make your arms shorter.
This is especially true for a former "tenor style" neck that was converted "Bay style" (I don't mean Mr. Bay's design specifically, but rather those necks that have the mouthpiece receiver cut and resoldered at a different angle).

The attached picture (bad cellular phone shot, I know) may illustrate this a bit - one neck is a Bundy "tenor style" neck, the other's from a Jupiter. Even though that the Jupiter neck is more tightly wound, the mouthpiece tip sits at ~1 inch higher, which means that the RH keys sit at least 1 inch further down the body. Add the different head position (less tilt back than with the Bundy neck) and you might find the RH touchpieces even further away.

As long as you're blessed with long arms like an Orang, no problem. But if you're on the short side, you may find that your right hand now has to be operated at somewhat uneasy angle.

All I'm saying is that before you shell out big bucks for a new neck, be sure to thoroughly test the "ease of operation" with the new setup.
 
clarnibass said:
I found some of those played a little sharp but not a major problem. You had to pull an inch out and still lip down?! How sharp was it? How sharp were the throat notes like A and G#, which would be lowered much than 'long' notes by pulling out. For example, the different in tone hole distance between throat A and throat G# is about an inch. So pulling the neck an inch out would lower the throat A by a semi tone... and you still had to lip down? This would make the difference between 440 and 442 almost non-existent.
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I wish I still had the instrument, or when I did have it, written down the exact problem tones. Unfortunately I did not do either of these, and did not have enough time with the instrument to get comfortable. I was definitely playing it way above 442 when pushed in all the way. I had pulled out so far it seemed to affect the response of some tones. This could very well have been my own fault, as it was a rental horn and the first time for me on the mouthpiece, ligature, reed setup. I'm happy to say that I now have a peterson Stroboflip, which is by far the best tuner I've ever had, and I'm thankful for purchasing it on ebay every day. I wish I had this during the show as well. A few good things for me during that show was that the piano was quite sharp, and singers are always sharp, so besides feeling completely on edge every time I put down the soprano sax and reached for the big mama, it came off well. A couple shrill squeaks, but I just got a call from the music director for his next show, so it must not have been too offensive. (Thankfully no bass clarinet for now). :)
 
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