Usable???

[kevgermany]

Any thoughts on using an 870/435 pitch sax at 440 ? I was guessing if I tuned it round about G, I could probably play it in tune, or am I expecting too much?

 

[jbtsax]

In my understanding you would be able to "tune" your tuning note, but the scales and octaves would be out of tune with one another. The only practical use of a instrument made to play at A=435 nowadays would be to play it solo (or with a tunable keyboard) or in an ensemble of like instruments.

The low pitched instrument's A Concert is approx. 12.5 cents lower than the A on modern instruments.

 

[tictactux]

Any thoughts on using an 870/435 pitch sax at 440 ? I was guessing if I tuned it round about G, I could probably play it in tune, or am I expecting too much?

Around A=440, each Hertz up or down means ~4 cents sharper or flatter, so with an A=435 instrument, expect to sound 20 cents flat. Against A=442 (continental Europe), this would be around 28 cents or more than a quarter of a semitone, however.

Now, 20 cents are not the end of the world, and there are many instruments that have one or two of those famous "sore" notes which are that far off. A whole instrument, on the other hand...

I think, with a bit of shoving-in and lipping up (and carefully listening to the others), you might be getting satisfactory results. Definitely worth a try unless you first have to invest big $$$ to bring the instrument back into playing condition.

 

[jbtsax]

Oops. I divided 24.7 by 100 instead of the other way around and then misplaced the decimal multiplying .247 by 5. Thanks Tictactux for pointing out my mathematical error. Each hz does represent approximately 4 cents in that area of frequencies.

 

[Groovekiller]

1. If the instrument is truly pitched at A=435, it is only slightly below modern pitch.

2. When the standard pitch was A=435, many manufacturers were fudging the temperature at which pitch was measured, and the true pitch of the instrument was nearly A=440.

3. I have one Adolphe Sax alto that is truly pitched at A=435. With the right mouthpiece, it is quite usable in a modern ensemble.

4. I don't recommend using A=435 instruments with modern ensembles pitched at A=440, but it is entirely possible. Try lots of mouthpieces. It may be more trouble than it's worth, but sometimes the results are quite nice.

5. Don't believe everything you read on an internet forum, including my own posts. many advisors are parroting information that they read in books, and they have no real life experience. The real fun is finding out for yourself what works.

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks. Interesting points. Especially about the fudge...

The sax is stamped 870, so I guess it's either genuine, or fudged. I think I'll take a punt, if it isn't too expensive. Does need some work, but I can do that myself so it should help with the price a little.

What would I look for in a mouthpiece? Large chamber, pushed on a long way?

 

[Groovekiller]

Try every mouthpiece to which you have access. Sometimes it's better not to have a preconcieved opinion. Use a tuner, and don't get nuts over a few notes that are slightly out of tune. After all, the player has to do something!

 

[Jacques5646]

5. Don't believe everything you read on an internet forum, including my own posts. many advisors are parroting information that they read in books, and they have no real life experience. The real fun is finding out for yourself what works.

How true and refreshing in this world of self appointed experts and you-know-alls!

J

 

[kymarto]

There are plenty of people playing flutes pitched at 435. At 440 things shouldn't be bad, but I think things might get a bit noticeable after 442 or so. I'd guess the biggest issue will be the the C2/D2 break and a long octave with the low notes being somewhat flat. How much I don't know, but they are harder to lip up than those on flute.

That leaves you pushing in with short tube notes getting sharp. Nothing to do about that--it's based on hole positions. A good mpc match should give you true octaves, but it might happen that a smaller chamber piece pulled out farther will bring the second octave short tube notes down--probably not a bad idea to shorten the second register long octave. That's what theory predicts, but in real life there are many factors in play that make that a simplistic prediction...

 

[tictactux]

That leaves you pushing in with short tube notes getting sharp. Nothing to do about that--it's based on hole positions. A good mpc match should give you true octaves, but it might happen that a smaller chamber piece pulled out farther will bring the second octave short tube notes down--probably not a bad idea to shorten the second register long octave. That's what theory predicts, but in real life there are many factors in play that make that a simplistic prediction...

It's not all that difficult to bring the short tube notes down a good bit, at the expense of a bit of venting as the tone hole diameter is decreased.
Basically you put a crescent-shaped piece of cork on the upper inside of a "sharp" tone hole, which prolongs the air column a wee bit. I did this on a Bundy BC where the throat A was unbelievably sharp - a 2mm crescent took care of that problem quite nicely.

Here's a MusicMedic article: http://www.musicmedic.com/info/articles/num_24.html

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks, lots of good ideas. Let's see if I can get it.

 

[clarnibass]

Are you asking about using the A=435 at A=435 but playing with an A=440 pitch instrument, or trying to play the A=435 sax at A=440? I don't think the former would work so good. The latter can work but like everyone said, you just have to try stuff. Actually don't assume the sax is 435. I would try to play it "in tune" first (i.e. 440,441 or 442) and see what "problems" I get. Try different mouthpeices. The option of pushing the mouthpiece more and maybe using fillers to some of the higher tone holes is also possible and might help. Maybe you are "lucky" and most of the sax was made "too sharp" for its 435 pitch

Is this sax so different and special that you'd want to use it instead of a sax with better intonation for what you need?

 

[jbtsax]

One might try pushing the cork in on their modern saxophone until it is 20 cents sharp on its tuning note, and then checking scales and octaves using this + 20 setting to see how the relative intonation between notes is affected.

I may be wrong, but 20 cents above or below A=440 (20/100 or 1/5 of a half-step) seems to me to be more than slightly away from standard pitch.

 

[pete]

Y'all haven't asked the obvious question: what kind of sax is it? A=435hz is French Standard (1859-1896). It could, of course, just be a horn that happens to have "870" stamped on it for whatever reason, but a 19th century horn would be interesting.

Got some pics?

 

[kevgermany]

It was this one:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/251021986681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

but it got too expensive, even for here. It needs a repad if I read his German properly, looks like it's worse than mine (seller says needs new Stempel.... = needs new stamp(s)... and a spring). By the time I'd repadded it, it'd cost more than it's really worth.

Why? Cos I'm a sucker for old saxes. New ones don't excite me. I'm like that with a lot of things - cameras, cars... And the mouthpiece would be a period match for one of my two Kohlert altos from the 30s.

I was intending to play it at 440 - so the intention was to get a middling note (like G) in tune at 440 and bring the long octave back as I play.

Hadn't thought of the crescents, but they'd have helped.

 

[jbtsax]

That sax looks as if it is in great condition. It has the "piggy back" Eb trill key just like my Buffet-Crampon soprano.

 

[tictactux]

Why? Cos I'm a sucker for old saxes. New ones don't excite me. I'm like that with a lot of things - cameras, cars... And the mouthpiece would be a period match for one of my two Kohlert altos from the 30s.

I feel your pain, or pining. Not necessarily for saxes, but for old honkers in general. New instruments may have better ergos and all, but they lack history...

 

[pete]

It was this one:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/251021986681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

but it got too expensive, even for here. It needs a repad if I read his German properly, looks like it's worse than mine (seller says needs new Stempel.... = needs new stamp(s)... and a spring). By the time I'd repadded it, it'd cost more than it's really worth.

Why? Cos I'm a sucker for old saxes. New ones don't excite me. I'm like that with a lot of things - cameras, cars... And the mouthpiece would be a period match for one of my two Kohlert altos from the 30s.

I was intending to play it at 440 - so the intention was to get a middling note (like G) in tune at 440 and bring the long octave back as I play.

Hadn't thought of the crescents, but they'd have helped.

I'd ask Helen about it, as she's the expert on Germanic horns, but I kinda doubt the A=435 comment. If it had any odd intonation standard, it'd be more likely that it'd be high pitch, A=457hz. I've not heard of any Germanic saxes with A=435.

 

[kevgermany]

There's another Hüller alto on there now. Stamped 880. Seller says Hüller changed to this about 1939. Asking a high price as well... I won't be bidding.

I'll see what I can find out. Ta for the hint.

 

[clarnibass]

New instruments may have better ergos and all, but they lack history...

You create it