Usable???

[Helen]

There's another Hüller alto on there now. Stamped 880. Seller says Hüller changed to this about 1939. Asking a high price as well... I won't be bidding.

I'll see what I can find out. Ta for the hint.

The tenor with the D speaker key looks very nice. (Me being primarily a tenor player nowadays and all, I'm drawn to them like a moth to a flame.) ;-) The price is decent on it too. The alto you mention, is interesting. Although I find it hard to believe what he claims to have paid for it 12 years ago... From his teacher no less. Do they really cost that much? I don't know. I've seen no evidence of it.

The German eBay dealer--who also has a brick and mortar store--bluespeter1 often has GH Hüller horns. He's had quite a few altos both with and without the D speaker keys over the past few months. He also has all kinds of other wonderful and obscure European brands on a regular basis. His horns appear to be in very good condition. Some even appear, based on the photos and descriptions at least, to be darn near minty. Have you given any of his horns a look? He seems to be up on the history of the brands quite well as well.

 

[kevgermany]

Yes, that tenor looks really nice. I don't think it'll go for any where near that price. Lovely engraving as well. Wonder if it's got a swastika on it. That'd put people off....

Have seen Bluespeter's offerings often. Mostly very nice horns, I agree. Not cheap, though.

On the prices, things are generally expensive here. And selling something privately in good order, the guys tend to ask a lot. The Hüllers, particularly. I think part of it is the euro getting very strong. A few years back it was as low as 80 US cents. Now it's more like 130 - more than 60% up, but second hand sax prices didn't drop. It does, however, put the 1800DM in perspective. Still seems high to me.

I gess you don't have any further info on the 870/880 pitches.

 

[Helen]

I gess you don't have any further info on the 870/880 pitches.

Oh, I missed that part earlier. Sorry.

I've never understood G.H. Hüller's 870, 880 tuning info and exactly how it relates to L vs. H pitch. I would have to check into some of the German research I have and see if it is covered there. It might very well be. But off the top of my head I would have to say all I know is that 880 seems to line up with Low pitch tuning.

I'll take a look and see if I can find anything in the materials I have. It will be fairly easy to do, since they're all PDFs, so I can electronically search everything I have. I'll let you know if I find anything.

 

[pete]

FWIW, I do have pics of an Amati that has "880" engraved/stamped on it (Kohlert body and s/n; made during WWII), I assumed A=880hz rather than high pitch, but I never assumed an A=435hz intonation horn was still out there by WWII.

Hm. It'll be something interesting to research. All yours, Helen!

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks Helen.

A=880 is just a different convention for low pitch. So A=880=440. No difference.

Thus the A=870=435. Slightly lower than standard low pitch, and as Pete pointed out, an old French standard.

There's a good reference article on pitches here:

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm

but it doesn't give a reason for using a convention of 880 instead of 440. I seem to remember reading something about it somewhere, but I can't remember any details or where I saw it.

Wikipedia mentions that 435 was also an Austrian standard, which would go some way to explaining why some of the German/Czech saxes were pitched there, but this isn't corroborated by Dolmentsch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_(music). However Dolmetsch does say that A=432 was adopted outside France, but not many details are given.

 

[pete]

Wikipedia mentions that 435 was also an Austrian standard ....

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm says the Austrian standard was 460.0 hz (you can search the page for "460.0") in 1880.

Just sayin' ....

(FWIW, you can find a bunch of articles on the Google that say things from what's in that Wikipedia article to, "Germany adopted A=440hz around <insert year>," to, "Austria adopted A=435hz in 1885. Maybe 1880. Wait. Maybe it's A=460hz." And that's on just the first two pages of results. In other words, too many references to prove any pitch standard was adopted at any time. You can also read about the A=440hz conspiracy, too. No, I'm not kidding. It's also repeated in various forms across the Intarwebs. My faith in humanity just dropped a little more.)

BTW, that Dolmetsch article is mind-bogglingly dense, but a good read.

I did find another reference to a Huller clarinet stamped "870." Unfortunately, this horn does not have the original barrel, so there's no way of being 100% certain it was an A=435hz instrument.

We've also discussed the 870 before. Roger Aldridge has one of these horns:

One thing that's important to know about GH Huller saxophones is they will have either a 870 or 880 number stamped on the upper part of the body. 870 = 435 tuning and 880 = 440 tuning. It's my understanding that 435 was used in Europe prior to 1939. When I discovered this, I was worred that I'd have intonation problems. However, I have no problems at all in having good 440 intonation. In fact, I'd be so bold to say that my Huller's intonation is better than that of some Selmer (Paris) saxes I've played in the past. At some point in the horn's history shims were installed in the palm key tone holes. Eric considered the work to be a high quality repair and left them in.

No intonation problems, other than the adjusted palm keys might mean that the horn's an A=440hz instrument and the "870" means something else. Or that Roger always plays a bit sharp .

(Note that I may actually be right about Roger always playing sharp: intonation standards are calculated at a specific temperature and elevation. Really. I'd bet humidity also factors in.)

In any event, I'd love to actually play an overhauled, unaltered "870" Huller or other Germanic horn (like the Amati I mentioned) with a digital tuner to confirm an A=435hz intonation standard. Regardless of any of the above articles, the confirmation of that would be interesting. 'Course, we'd then have to talk about what "870" really means, like how we wonder what the "N" or "M" series serial numbers on a Mark VI means or why French-made instruments made in the 1930s through 1940s have stars stamped on them.