Which reeds for tárogáto?
- Thread starter Taragot
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Now, to push the thread further, how many of you notice a difference in sound between the clarinet reeds and saxophone reeds?
Which brand reeds are you using to get the different tones or lack thereof?
I'm too curious.
The only reeds in this building right now are Vandorens, bass clarient and Bb/A.
I realize everyone is different with what sound they can get out of what reed, but I could expect a general and "loose" difference between musicians with the different setups.
One tárogató I've heard sounded like a kazoo, the others I usually hear sound like "normal" tárogatós, the soprano sax/clarinet like sound.
Which brand reeds are you using to get the different tones or lack thereof?
I'm too curious.
The only reeds in this building right now are Vandorens, bass clarient and Bb/A.
I realize everyone is different with what sound they can get out of what reed, but I could expect a general and "loose" difference between musicians with the different setups.
One tárogató I've heard sounded like a kazoo, the others I usually hear sound like "normal" tárogatós, the soprano sax/clarinet like sound.
On my taragot, I use RICO 1.5 Bb clarinet reeds, and I scrape them down even thinner. My mouthpiece is actually a little narrower than the reeds, so I sometimes trim the edges of the reed also.
George
Largely determined by the mouthpiece (chamber, etc). In Romania/Transylvania, they have distinct styles of mouthpieces. Some can sound very metallic, others more open. That's only my observation.
George
I have a wooden mouthpiece for my tárogató and it takes much wider reeds... it's the "unimproved" key system... much wider, as in, bass clarinet size reeds. I haven't played it yet, but this cannot be normal ?? It is not a tenor tárogató mind my description, the instrument is about 27.5" long with no rings or rollers. I'm not sure as to what do do about the reeds, just use the bass clarinet reeds and see if that works. I need to re-pad the instrument before any playing happens.
Princess, sorry I didn't respond earlier. Not sure what's up with the wider mouthpieces. But I just fixed up my friend's taragot, which has been sitting in storage untouched for over 10-15 years. His mouthpiece is plastic, and it was unplayable (too open). It also seemed a bit wider. He bought it in Romania sometime in the early 90's. It came with a bunch of reeds, which were obviously well used. And it looked they were made to fit this instrument, in a crude way - someone just hacked at them with what appeared to be pocket knife
So it's possible they started with a larger reed then Bb.I made a new ebony mouthpiece for him, which is a copy of mine. It totally changed the sound and the instrument plays easily now. It takes regular Bb reeds. In fact, I am now buying that taragot from him to have as a 2nd instrument, or to possibly sell it now that it plays well.
George
Gheorghe--
Very soft reeds can make it difficult or impossible to play the high register. A 1.5 is already very soft and scraping it further might well put it beyond the bounds of general playability.
Of course this also depends to some extent on the facing curve of the mouthpiece, but you say that you are new to reeds, so I am thinking you might be playing with a weak embouchure and reeds that are too soft. Try a harder reed with more embouchure support and see if the highs improve. You will need to build up your embouchure muscles. Beginning clarinet players often start with a 1.5 but eventually move up to a 2.5 or 3 for good tone and control.
Very soft reeds can make it difficult or impossible to play the high register. A 1.5 is already very soft and scraping it further might well put it beyond the bounds of general playability.
Of course this also depends to some extent on the facing curve of the mouthpiece, but you say that you are new to reeds, so I am thinking you might be playing with a weak embouchure and reeds that are too soft. Try a harder reed with more embouchure support and see if the highs improve. You will need to build up your embouchure muscles. Beginning clarinet players often start with a 1.5 but eventually move up to a 2.5 or 3 for good tone and control.
I've used reeds 1.5 through 3.5. (I started playing in December 2010). For the kind of music I play, you want softer reeds (Gheorghe Trambitas from Ohio goes with 1.0 sometimes).
I have no issues playing in pitch in the 2nd octave with soft reeds. Before I adjusted the bore in the upper joint, the 2nd octave was 1 step flat, no matter what reed I used or how tight the embouchure was. 3.5 was slightly better, but still way flat.
The only issue I have now is playing higher than the 2nd octave A. I'll give it a shot with stronger reeds (sometimes I use the Legere plastic ones - 2.5 I believe), but eventually I want to end up back at 1.5, playing the 2nd octave A and higher.
George
Not a question of playing in pitch, rather the fact that a very soft reed may simply close up and refuse to play in the higher end, but if you have tried harder reeds, that may not be the problem.
Another possibility is that the mpc facing is not optimal. I had lots of problems with the palm notes on my soprano sax until I found the right mouthpiece.
You adjusted the bore?? That might be the problem. Normally, if your upper octave is flat, you need to reduce the volume of your mpc, as a volume that is too large for the bore (that does not mimic the volume of the missing conic apex of the instrument) will narrow the modes, making the second register flat compared to the first. Benade describes an oboe player who ruined his oboe by adjusting the upper bore, where dimensions are very critical.
Then again maybe not, but that's a possibility.
Both are possibilities, but unlikely. I'm pretty sure it's a matter of technique. Upper G is easy, so is G#. A is the problem.
The upper joint absolutely needed to be adjusted. I've been through all the possibilities. Mouthpiece changes made 0 difference to the 2nd octave pitch.
I did not alter the bore blindly. I did it while conforming to the 17:1 taper, as described in a separate thread. The upper joint was too narrow near the top. The instrument sat untouched in storage for 10 years, so part of the reason could have been wood shrinkage. I consulted with an expert on this, who also told me it would be unlikely the mouthpiece would make much difference in this regard.
George
Again, I'm talking about the real A (880Hz) - using just the LH index finger + 2nd octave key.
George
In the discussion of reeds versus octaves, I find with a softer reed on my set up, I find the lower register to be literally impossible to work. My tárogató appreciates a 3 or a 3.5, and both registers play smoothly. I have to lip up the flatness of above, say, high F or so, other than that that has been my favorite reed. Vandoren Bb clarinet reeds.
With the 1.5, I only find it to be flat for the 1st few minutes of playing. After that, both octaves play pretty effortlessly.
Can you get the highest A and higher? (meaning 880 hz - written "H" or "Bb" and up).
George
Well I'm convinced. I'll try it with my 2.5 Legere tonight. I keep the 1.5 on for Romanian/Hungarian stuff, but I need that A.
G
Conical woodwinds often have a contraction at the upper end of the taper for acoustical reasons, either or both in the top third of the bore and just below where the mpc is inserted, and this is vital for the highest register intonation. I sincerely doubt that the wood shrunk to any appreciable extent: why would the wood shrink only at the top?
I don't know what "expert" you consulted, but it is well known that for conical woodwinds, the volume of the mpc is a vital factor in determining the relationship of the registers. Martinmods, if he is reading this, can confirm what I am saying, or you can read any book on musical acoustics. Increasing the volume of the mpc will lower the upper register, whereas decreasing it will raise it in relation to the first register, and more so as you go higher.
Of course it is also possible that the bore proportions were not good; tárogatós are not exactly known to be well-refined in this regard, as are modern oboes. And even oboes are extremely variable because of the importance of even small variations in manufacture. You might well have improved the intonation; or even improved the intonation in the lower part of the second register and made the response more balky in the upper part. It is really hard to say anything definitive without really knowing more about the combination of horn, mpc, reed and player. I would, though, suggest trying your setup on another taragot and seeing if the high register is any easier. I would also suggest you check very carefully to see if the upper register hole is clear and operating properly. I read an article that said that the tárogató should be able to play two and a half octaves, and that is what I would expect from both the oboe and saxophone, which are similar acoustically.
The person I asked for advice, and who provided it, is Stephen Fox. It was via private email exchange for which I am grateful, and I do not wish to misquote him here. I can tell you this: the modification made an unusable instrument usable, and he was right on the money with his advice.
We can theorize all we want about what happened to my instrument, thought I did not come here to argue or second guess the modifications I made. Sometimes theory is theory, and I needed action.
The bottom line is: I needed to get it into a working condition quickly, and there was nobody around to do the work. It didn't play in pitch, and now it does. Period. I've fitted various mouthpieces with different volumes before I made the changes, and like I said, it still did not bring the 2nd octave up to pitch. The difference was close to 0. I did not make the decision to modify the bore carelessly.
Again, I am looking forward to your feedback on your taragot, once you receive it!
George