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Borrowed instruments

Carl H.

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
This summer I have had two separate instances where I loaned out a bass clarinet. In both instances, sugary drinks were consumed during the performance by the persons playing the borrowed bass.

I would never do this to my own instruments, let alone an instrument someone was loaning me for free. Am i crazy to think these people need a slap upside the head?:geezer2:
 
I have become known in my area as someone who owns a lot of good woodwinds. After a couple of bad experiences many years ago, I established a rule:

I don't loan my horns or rent my horns for any reason whatsoever. The answer is no.

I once got a request to borrow my alto flute from one of the top symphonic flutists, a friend of mine. After a long dialogue, the final answer was the usual "No."

And then she replied, "If I owned one, I wouldn't loan my alto flute either."
 
I have like instruments, usually well-kept student to intermediate horns, that I will lend on occasion. I really hope to provide them to my grandkids. And many of them were instruments I tried to see if I wanted to learn to spend the time to become proficient.

I turned down a couple of requests to borrow my Selmer References but did end up lending a professor of saxophone my Eppelsheim bass. I should get it back in a week or so. And I did require a insurance policy for the duration of the loan. Still, scary stuff that.

The loan was for the creation of a classic CD. One of the pieces will be donated to Eppelsheim to put on his bass sax page, I'll get a CD, and I can come to the studio and watch the sessions. No money is exchaning hands.
 
I've loaned horns in some exceptional circumstances. Scott Robinson has borrowed a bass and a bari I used to own for recording sessions/gigs in Toronto.

With large horns and a player of professional stature, I'll do it, hoping that quid pro quo will help me out down the road.

Usually, I've been present when these situations occur.

I would not lend my bass to anyone that I consider to be in competition with me for a gig.
 
I loaned out a Selmer USA bass clarinet some years ago, and never saw it again.

I have borrowed his bass sax on occasion, so I felt comfortable doing so., However, the guy to who(m) it was loaned (and who used to play with my group) apparently loaned it in turn to his somewhat unstable girlfriend.

Fast forward a few months, and I got no response when I asked for it back. I imagine that the unstable girlfriend moved on, taking the horn with her.

(As an aside, all of the female bass clarinet player of my acquaintance (and I have known quite a few over the years) have been both flaky and promiscuous. I guess you have to take the good with the bad...)

Beyond requesting it back a few times (and getting no answer), I've not taken any other action. It was an old horn, bought for my daughter while in junior high (and after which purchase she promptly broke her arm in three places), and I don't really miss it that much. Also, it was one that was never on my inventory (I don't have the serial number) - hard to pursue a stolen property issue without that kind of information.

WIth that single exception, I've never, not once, loaned out a horn without being there as it was being used, and bringing it to the event and taking it home the same evening. And, even in those cases, I am as nervous as hell the whole time that it's not in my personal, direct custody.

Occasionally on Sax On The Web and elsewhere, you will see requests for information on locations that will rent out horns like baritone saxes, bass saxes, bass clarinets and the like. Other than the now defunct Saint Ann School Music Service, I've never known of anywhere that does this. (At various times, I rented English horns, a bass saxophone, and a Eb contra-alto clarinet from them for various Broadway shows that I've done.) And, Saint Ann is out of business long time passing.

Push comes to shove, if you are going to be needing a baritone saxophone for something, you should really own your own, be prepared to schlepp it around to where you need it, and get paid for your troubles. (For example, the AFM contract down here in Houston specifies "spiffs" for those who have to haul big horns like harps, bass clarinets, baritone saxes and so forth.)

School horns are not always available when you need them (and are often beaten to death when they are available). Better safe than sorry.
 
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I don't borrow instruments. I buy them. Well, not lately. The economy's nosedive put a stop to that. Fortunately I had everything I needed (not necessarily wanted) when the fit hit the shan on Wall street.

Since I own a lot of instruments, I am occasionally asked to loan one out. Always it's someone who doesn't own a tenor, bari, whatever, and who gets a pit job or something where they need the double and they are too cheap to buy a $3000 horn to play a $60 gig.

My policy is firm. If I know you well, if you can afford to replace the instrument, if you agree to fix it or buy me a replacement if you lose it, scratch it, or bend it, and if I have no reason to suspect you would not honor the agreement, then I will loan you one of my replaceable instruments during a time when I don't need it and not for a long period of time. (I don't want your girlfriend taking it along with the cookware and towels when she leaves.)

The operative word is "replaceable." I won't loan the few cherished instruments I own.

And the third time you ask, I will gently suggest that it's time for you to get off the dime and buy your own, given that I know you can afford one.

As far as not loaning to someone who is in competition with me for a gig, no problem. There are no gigs.

(I keep wishing someone would borrow my electronic keyboard and not give it back. I routinely leave it in the car unlocked. No one will even steal it. In fact, last week I returned to my car, and there was another keyboard in there. I know, old joke.)
 
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Several years ago, French trad-jazz clarinetist Alain Marquet was in L.A. for a performance in Santa Monica with Paris Washboard. I was called by the show's producer because Marquet's clarinet had been stolen in NYC. I had (still have and play) a Buffet RC Prestige. I was asked if Marquet could use it for the show. I readily agreed, attended the performance and heard how that horn was really supposed to sound. It all worked fine and I was happy to do it.

You can check out some of Marquet's playing on youtube by searching for "Charquet & Co,", one of the hottest trad bands EVER. DAVE
 
It's of a piece with my Selmer contest, where the first prize winner got a Mark VII sax, the second prize winner got two Mark VII saxes, and the third prize offering added a Series 10S clarinet...
 
I played bari sax throughout high school (and after, too). The first horn I used in HS was the school's horn. For about a year, I was the only person that played it, so no worries. After that, I had bought my first bari.

One day, I come into the band room and the director asks me if I had played with the school bari recently. No; my Keilwerth-made Bundy was only 1000% better than the beat up Buescher 400 the school owned, so I had no desire to play the school's horn. Why do you ask, director-man?

Well, someone had "borrowed" the bari. He decided to stand it up in the case and the horn fell over onto its crook, snapping the crook in half and ripping out all the crook's supports. (It was eventually determined that one of the junior high kids "borrowed" the horn.)

In other words, a good reason to have a bari with a nice locked case. The school did buy a brand new Selmer USA bari that was pretty decent to replace that horn, so that's a good thing.

I've borrowed my former instructors set of Mark VIs (soprano, alto, tenor) and his Buffet R13 clarinet. However, I've reciprocated by letting him borrow my YBS-52 bari and I donated several instruments to his orchestra. Aside from the fact that I worked for him, of course.

I've borrowed several other instruments in high school and college, including a couple Mark VI tenors, a Leblanc paperclip contrabass clarinet and a Conn New Wonder bass sax.

Awhile ago, I had let someone I knew relatively well borrow my POS Amati tenor sax and my grandfather's old Lyric clarinet. The "someone" said they were stolen, along with a couple of my instrument stands ....
 
My general rule is: I never lend my horns out. I invite people I trust over and they can play my horns (at my invitation only) in my studio. That's it. That's all.

My way of thinking is this: If it's a paying gig and the person doesn't have the gear: they shouldn't have taken the gig. If I have the gear, and I'm capable of the doing the show, I'll gladly do it for them, but I won't lend out my gear.

If the show's a freebee... Well they're S.O.L...

Now there may be extenuating circumstances like Jim has described, that I might be more flexible for. So far I haven't encountered any however (probably because I don't own an Eppi).;-)

Oh, and to answer your original question Carl, no, you're not crazy. These people do need a slap up the side of the head. I don't do that to my own horns, I certainly wouldn't do it to one that I borrowed. The only thing that could have been worse is if it had been a wooden one. Was it?
 
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I fully agree with the "if you don't have the horn, you shouldn't be doing the work" approach. One of the components of becoming a professional musician is that you are able to bring your own tools to the job so that you are truly an independent contractor, beholden to no one else for the ability to do the work. If you have to beg, borrow or (shudder) steal a horn in order to perform a job, then you ain't bein' very professional.

Guys who work for school districts sort of get a bye here, as they often have a horn room full of bass clarinets, double reeds and baritone saxophones to draw upon. Many's the time that I have been at a paid job with my six grand baritone and my eight grand bass clarinet, only to see someone haul out a tenor out of a Joe Doaks High School labeled case and prop it up on the floor, since the school doesn't provide free use sax stands.

Mind you, I'm not going to say that I haven't used a school horn now and then (particularly when it was a big harmony clarinet that was needed - renting them isn't normally an option). But, by the time I was twenty four or five, I had bought at least one each of the big, bulky horns that I play (with my own money, most of which was earned working for the government/military/the construction industry), and made it a point to rent whenever one was available any special horns that I had to have.

But, as Joaquin Anduhar, the mercurial Cardinal pitcher back in the 1980's used to say, "It's always somethin'"...
 
My personal Bass is a wooden one, but the subject of this thread is a relatively late model Vito HR low Eb bass owned by the local concert band and in my possession.

When I took possession it had 3 missing pads and was (obviously) unplayable. I replaced the pads and spent some time fine tuning it to the point where it played very easily up to the lower altissimo. I used it in place of my instrument so I didn't have to take mine out of the house in the MN winter.

1st time it left my hands was for a summer outdoor concert. I took her instrument, and gave it the works, and forced her to take it back the following week. Nothing above the staff was playable when I tried it next.

Next time was a person filling in for me on the closing night of the show Annie. Somebody had to cover the solo on N.Y.C. for me as I was at a higher priority gig. The whole run of the show she was sucking soda between numbers, I suspect her routine had not changed just because she was playing bass.( I could easily start a dozen rants on this individual and this production alone!)(An alto is NOT a substitute for a baritone and dum, ba dum (I;V,I), is not the melody in any book I've ever played! )


So there were extenuating circumstances, but still no acceptible excuse for mistreating an instrument.
 
On rare occasions I have let another player use one of my horns. I few years ago I brought my Mark VI alto for a player to use in a concert I was playing since the horn he had was less than reliable. I did loan out to a fellow player my soprano for an extended period of time. After getting it back and coming across my R&C I offered to sell it to him. He now owns it.

Generally I don't like loaning anything out because I am very particular about putting horns on stands and making sure that they are looked after. I played an outside gig a few weeks ago on alto and on the break took the horn with me. About the only time I will leave a horn unattended is if I am playing a classical gig on a big stage in an auditorium.
 
I'd never loan out my car or my motorbike. Simply because if there were an accident I'd reproach myself for letting someone ride with it who was unfamiliar with their (vehicles') idiosyncrasies. That's what Hertz and all the others are for.

I'd never loan my primary instruments to someone, but I always have a clarinet or a flute that aren't "mine" (in the emotional sense) that I plan to sell anyway, and I might give them for a trial for the promise of buying them if the gig was successful.
(my prices aren't that astronomic, and surprisingly, many doublers find a good student-grade instrument better than anticipated and decide to keep them. Currently I've got "open orders" for a Bach/Bundy cornet and a trumpet...)
 
Ah, a cornet. I have trumpet players go into transports of fury whenever I suggest that something would sound better on the cornet...
IMO almost everything will sound better on a cornet...
 
Ah, a cornet. I have trumpet players go into transports of fury whenever I suggest that something would sound better on the cornet...

When they can play their trumpets as well as Nat Adderly played his cornet, their opinions on such matters might count for something.
 
So is it a matter of tone or playing style for cornets vs. trumpet? If Al's comment means what I think it means, it would be playing style.

In my opinion it is tone. Besides tone, when it comes to playing style I've always loved Bix, early Louis Armstrong, and the current trad cornetists Tom Pletcher, Bob Schultz and Leon Oakley.

All the bands I play in had/have cornets, not trumpets. I suppose it has something to do with tradition; nevertheless, I love a nicely played cornet. DAVE
 
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