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Is this Buffet Eefer as old as I think it is?

TrueTone

Clarinet, Sax, Oboe, History
#1
So an auction I was watching ended, and I wasn't a bidder as I was in a wind quintet's concert listening to them.
Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162959998230
My thoughts are that this Buffet is from the 1850s, but I'm not fully convinced I'm right. It has what I understand was the Buffet logo from before he added his wife's name Crampon to it, and looks to be a bit too advanced for the time period-it has rollers and 4 rings, which I'm fairly sure had only been around for a few years at the time, and I'm not too sure any clarinets had rings on the UJ yet at this point in time. It also looks a bit too modern in the barrel/joint end rings and such, although I know some mid-19th century Buffets had rings on the ends of all female tenons, but those had the modern logo on them.
Anyone here have anything that proves or disproves its legitimacy?
It's certainly possible that it could be a fake...
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#3
It's certainly possible that it could be a fake...
I doubt it. Making a fake of a not-commonly-used clarinet pitch in concert with a not-commonly-used fingering system isn't practical, especially when you get only $205 on the thing. It is possible that someone replaced the roller keys -- i.e. the entire key, not just the roller -- or something like that.

Anyhow, more of a question for @Steve
 

TrueTone

Clarinet, Sax, Oboe, History
#4
I doubt it. Making a fake of a not-commonly-used clarinet pitch in concert with a not-commonly-used fingering system isn't practical, especially when you get only $205 on the thing. It is possible that someone replaced the roller keys -- i.e. the entire key, not just the roller -- or something like that.

Anyhow, more of a question for @Steve
My thinking on it being a possible fake was that it might have been one from the 1870s or something like that.
What you said about the keys with rollers being replaced or altered makes sense though...hmm.
 

TrueTone

Clarinet, Sax, Oboe, History
#5
My thinking on it being a possible fake was that it might have been one from the 1870s or something like that.
What you said about the keys with rollers being replaced or altered makes sense though...hmm.
As I typed this right before my Chem lab and didn't really proofread it-I expect it if it was a fake to be from the 1870s, as an Albert system Buffet with that logo would still be within common memory. I know I've seen a fake looking Selmer Albert system (fake looking logo that looked nothing like any Selmer logo) before on eBay last year, so it's certainly possible. Whether or not it's probable is a bit different, like you said, Pete, that's not very practical to fake.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#6
This was fun.

There is an 1850 invoice for a Buffet Bb clarinet (and other instruments) at http://clariboles-et-cie.blogspot.com/2016/02/facture-buffet-crampon-de-1850.html. The price is 110 Francs. There's a website that does inflation calculation from way back then, which is impressive in and of itself. 110 Francs in 1850 = $1197 US in 2015. FWIW, Eb sopranos are slightly more costly than their Bb counterparts: the Bb Tosca is $7509 and the Eb is $7879. That's about a 5% difference in price. (Pete used math! It's super effective.)

FWIW, several years ago, I saw that there was someone taking saxophones and engraving them with logos from different companies. I remarked that the horns weren't bad makes/models and could have fetched a relatively good price if they HADN'T been re-engraved. So, you're right: possible but not practical.
 

TrueTone

Clarinet, Sax, Oboe, History
#7
Well-I saw an ebay listing today and it made me realize I didn't account for something-key cup shapes.
Wichita Band instrument company listed these E-flats today:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-ANTIQU...RESSTORED-PRE-1860-BOEHM-KEYWORK/232731587126
Here's some pictures from their listing:




The important thing out of these two is the logo shown in the one right above this sentence being on a clarinet that still has those "salt spoon" shaped keys-probably one of Buffet's few years producing keys like that still.
But, if I'm right in assuming they'd probably not produce clarinets with both key shapes concurrently, as that'd be a bit annoying to try to deal with on their part, the E-flat I linked earlier in this thread is either rather anachronistic, or is a late 19th century attempt at a fake. I've looked in my screenshots I've saved of rare clarinets that I occasionally come across in auctions, and found another Buffet with that logo of Buffet a Paris above a star, a Bb Albert System, and it also has the same post 1860ish padcups.

On a different note, that boxwood Eefer they have is in really nice shape, though.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#8
The thing I find more remarkable is how little the look of the clarinet has changed in 175ish years.
 

TrueTone

Clarinet, Sax, Oboe, History
#9
The thing I find more remarkable is how little the look of the clarinet has changed in 175ish years.
That's really surprising compared to other wind instruments, honestly-something like an oboe or saxophone looked noticeably different then from today. (the oboe moreso than the sax)
I suppose that speaks to Klosé and Buffet's designs...(and Boehm's)
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#10
Oddly, the boxwood one looks more modern because of the flatter keycup design. If I didn't know that boxwood generally = old, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a date.

Going even further on a tangent, I didn't know that "boxwood" is just a family of different woods, which includes pearwood, which I've heard of in other 19th century and older instruments. Some really nice pics of recorders made out of different woods are at this link. Some more woods can be found here. If I remember, I might start a thread on woods, because I'm sorta intrigued.
 
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