Pierret Madness

kymarto

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So I just scored a beautiful silver Super Artiste 48 alto for $350 on eBay. It belonged to a municipal hall in a town in France, and apparently they are restocking with new instruments and selling old ones. Looks little used; of course I won't know more until I have it in my hands.

That brings my total of Pierrets up to 3, and the more I research Pierrets, the less I understand. They seem to have been made in somebody's garage and put together and named at somebody's whim. For instance, take the modèle 6. I have what must be a late one, with a nailfile G# key (though not clutched to the C# and B key) and with right-side bell keys. Must be from the 30's at the earliest. And yet you have modèle 6s going back at least a decade and probably more earlier with completely different body and keywork (left-side bell keys).

My 6 and the new SA 48 coming have those funny angular art deco keyguards, but most have the more usual rounded Selmer-style guards. So again a material design difference with no indication as to whether is was some sort of option. This is quite a bit different than offering different finishes in one model line...Also funny is the fact that my 6 has only the model number stamped, with the name engraved. Most all the others I have seen have both name and model number stamped.

Necks. Unbelieveable. Some with the faux microtuner and some without (it's just a threaded collar). I've counted at least three different designs of octave keys and three different neck braces (and no neck brace). They seem to appear and disappear throughout the model lines with no rhyme or reason. My 6 has a neck brace that is shaped to and soldered along the underside of the neck. The new SA has no neck brace at all.

Now key design. The right pinky keys on some Super Artistes are rounded, and on others are angular, with no other changes being evident. It's weird.

They play great. The modele 6 has a unique sound IME--not unfocused, but rather "smoky" and "velvety"--a great ballad horn. That being said, it has the most difficult top alt E and F that I have ever encountered--you need an altissimo embouchure to play them. Makes me think the horn is singularly lacking in higher partials, which would also explain the tone.

I also have a nickel plated Super Artiste tenor in beautiful shape, but the assembly is less than ideal. I almost thought that it had been replated after the fact, because the metal under the plating in some places around ribs is quite rough, as if it had not been cleaned up before plating. Some keywork is greviously loose and needs swedging. That all being said, it is a monster of a player, unbelievable, with a big well-balanced sound that I would put up against any tenor you care to name. It certainly gives both my Martin and King Super 20 a run for their money; it just sings.

Will report back when the SA 48 arrives. I can also supply serial numbers although they seem to be arbitrary...
 
I can also supply serial numbers although they seem to be arbitrary.

My opinion on the serial numbers is that they're different for each model. In other words, a Modele 6 with a serial number of 20140702 would be the
20140702nd Modele 6 produced, not the 20140702nd Pierret produced. However, it's just an opinion.

Oh. Standard point: This thread needs more pics.
 
I will be happy to post pix of the trio when the SA 48 arrives and I am back in Japan. It's odd, Helen, that for all your Pierret pix you have no "Super Artiste" category in your gallery, and Pete, I know it ain't your baby any more, but a huge number of the image links in the SaxPics gallery of Pierrets are broken.
 
First up kymarto, contrats! I love it when another Pierret finds a good home. I didn't realize that you too were a Pierret player.

It's odd, Helen, that for all your Pierret pix you have no "Super Artiste" category in your gallery,

Must be being blocked where you live. ;) I've got a huge Super Artiste section in Bassic Sax Pix (290 images, with more in my computer that I haven't uploaded yet). You'll notice there's even a 48 in there, but more 47's.

Speaking of images to upload to the Pierret gallery, I was just looking and I realized that I have lots. I'll make an effort to get them all up in the next few days and then update this thread with a link when done.

I have some interesting horns to upload including another late-model Modele 6 with the "new style" key guard you mention yours has (so yes, they definitely carried this model on past the 1920s), an unlabelled bari, and a stencil horn labelled Sylvester, which has the strangest key assembly I've ever seen on a Pierret. It is stamped Patented, but I realize I never looked up the patent to see what it was all about. BTW, I already have a late-model Modele 6 in my gallery, it is tenor #13320. The seller claimed it was from the era of the Super Artiste horns, and was circa 1962.

The 2 Pierrets that I personally own are both very old examples. The alto has a very primitive construction, and is the most annoying horn a tech can work on. In order to make any adjustments on keys, other keys must be removed. It is truly frustrating. This horn does have a microtuner though, and a patented neck octave key.

The tenor has to be restored yet, but is in remarkable shape. Although it is leaking like a sieve ATM, it has that dark, "smokey", "velvety" tone you describe. It would indeed make a great ballad horn once restored. Interestingly enough, both my alto and my tenor suffer from the same front E/F difficulty you mention. I hadn't though about it before, but yes, I wonder if this isn't related to their source of tone. Mmm...

My inability to read French has made researching this brand somewhat of a challenge. I sometimes come across bits and pieces of info, but translation programs are so incredibly inaccurate, I'm loathe to put anything they generate up on my website for fear that it's inaccurate or flat-out wrong. (I know how wrong the German translations can be. For a good laugh I sometime put German into Google translate. :emoji_rage: )

As far a the serial #'s goes, from what I can see, they do seem to follow some sort of logical pattern, but model specifically. As you progress up the serial #'s within a model, the features seem to improve, suggesting the horn is newer.

I tend to agree with Pete that each model likely started with 1, or 001, or 100, or something like that, and went up from there.
 
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> and Pete, I know it ain't your baby any more, but a huge number of the image links in the SaxPics gallery of Pierrets are broken.
You might want to try my "classic" page at
http://saxpics.com/pierret/index.htm and access pics through http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&c=3480. I have some newer pics in my new gallery at http://www.thesax.info/gallery3/index.php/Pierret.

I'm pretty sure that the Pierret page was the last page I did before I sold saxpics.com, so that page is 5ish years old. It could be redone much better. However, I'm trying hard not to just redo stuff I've done before and/or stuff that's already covered by a lot of folks -- in Pierret's case, Helen's written a lot about them, too. I'm currently concentrating on re-writing stuff about Yanagisawa. That looks like it's going to take quite a bit of time.

Oops. Almost forgot. If you do need a pic from saxpics.com, I do still have a gallery backup, so just e-mail me and I'll hook you up.
 
> My inability to read French has made researching this brand somewhat of a challenge. I sometimes come across bits and pieces of info, but translation programs are so incredibly inaccurate, I'm loathe to put anything they generate up on my website for fear that it's inaccurate or flat-out wrong. (I know how wrong the German translations can be. For a good laugh I sometime put German into Google translate. :emoji_rage: )
I think I've mentioned that I took Latin in HS and college. That means I have some basic literacy in most Romantic languages (French, Italian, Spanish, etc.). So, I generally look at Google Translate and spot-check with Pete Translate. I then generally transliterate what I read to get to a real "translation." However, in Yanagisawa's case, I can speak a little Japanese, but I can't read it at all. That means I use Google Translate and try to guess ... then I try to find other documentation or pictures that can back up what I'm saying.

>
and a stencil horn labelled Sylvester, which has the strangest key assembly I've ever seen on a Pierret. It is stamped Patented, but I realize I never looked up the patent to see what it was all about.
I've written about it. Here ya go. Earl O. Sylvester.
 
Helen, I found your Super Artiste gallery :)

I notice also that the fancy "bridge" neck brace appears on horns (altos) that have a "ring" bell/body brace rather than the single rod type. May have been a big redesign at some point...

Funny thing--the 48 that I bought looks a lot like the one in your gallery, minus the microtuner and neck brace. What is striking is that the engraving style matches, and is different from the other Art Deco keyguard type engraving. All the others I have seen including my 6 have angular-type geometric patterns, whereas the two 48s have floral-type engraving. Is this a clue? Who knows....

Pete--I don't need pix from your galleries but thanx. Do you think I should let the new owners know that many of the Pierret pix have broken image links?
 
Do you think I should let the new owners know that many of the Pierret pix have broken image links?

I don't believe they care. To my knowledge, they are more than aware, and have been for years. That Pierret page has been broken for nearly 4 years now--or for as long as they went to Saxpics Version 2.0.
 
Hmmm...I thought that the "bridge" neck brace, which I saw only on Super Artistes with the ring body brace, was perhaps a later development, but now I see it on an Oxford which is way old....Were those people on drugs or what?
 
Hmmm...I thought that the "bridge" neck brace, which I saw only on Super Artistes with the ring body brace, was perhaps a later development, but now I see it on an Oxford which is way old....Were those people on drugs or what?

Can you imagine how amusing it will be to set up my Excel spread chart and track the model changes? I'm sure that's why I've been putting it off for so many years. :emoji_imp:
 
I think it's entirely possible that Pierret did say to themselves, "Everybody liked this feature. Let's go back to it." That's rather the opposite of what other companies do. I do agree with Helen, though: it makes tracking the model changes a tad difficult.
 
"Do we 'ave any more neck braces for ze alto? Non? 'Ow about zose old ones in ze closet?"

It's like that old joke--heaven is where the English are the policemen, the French are the cooks, the Italians are the lovers and the Germans are the engineers. Hell is where the Italians are the policemen, the English are the cooks, the Germans are the lovers and the French are the engineers...
 
Pierret Gallery Updated

OK, so I've uploaded the hundreds, yes there were hundreds, of new Pierret pics that I've managed to collect over the past 18 or so months since I updated that particular gallery last. There were seriously way more than I thought there were.

You can find all the new pics in the Pierret Gallery of Bassic Sax Pix. You can see which sub-galleries have new images because they have "new" beside them in neon green. The "new" text will be there for the next 30 days.

I haven't had a chance to add all the text yet obviously--I'll be doing that in the next few days--but I wanted to let anyone who was interested in looking at the pics know that they're now available for viewing.

If you have any Pierret images you'd like to contribute towards my gallery, let me know. I'd love to add them.
 
I saw that you were missing at least one from my gallery, so, if you'd like, g'head and grab it. Or grab them all. http://www.thesax.info/gallery3/index.php/Pierret. Also, if there's anything that you wanted from saxpics.com that's not there -- broken pic link, etc. -- drop me a line.

I'll send you an e-mail with a few more.
 
My new baby shipped from France, will best me back to Tokyo. I'll be back the second week of August and will do some nice pix of all three.
 
Interesting. Very interesting. Yet another vintage saxophone theory turned on its ear.

Yes, since Pierret was first written about online, they have been referred to as a "saxophone only" manufacturer. Until today, nothing I have seen in over 15 years on Internet searches would have led me to believe that that was not the case. Furthermore, I find it interesting that this is a brass wind that you stumbled across, and not another woodwind instrument bearing the Pierret name.

So FWIW, here are my possible theories--I'm sure Pete and others will have more that they will chime in with--but here goes...

  • This is a one-off. Perhaps Pierret was just experimenting with other instruments made of brass, to see if it was something that they might want to/or could do.
  • This is a stencil horn. Maybe Pierret just ordered some trumpets, and/or other instruments, from other manufacturers to see if they could sell them. Or perhaps they had an order to outfit a military band or school with all its instruments, so they ordered a full band of instruments from other manufacturers.
  • It's a fake. Although why anyone would engrave a fake Pierret trumpet, when Pierret was known to make only saxophones, seems rather stupid to me. But hey, not all fraudsters are brilliant. ;) (This seems like the least likely explanation in my mind.)

OK folks, anyone else want to take a stab at explaining this one?
 
I'm not a trumpet player, but I find it interesting that this one can be converted from Bb to C by changing a piece of plumbing. So this seems to be rather unique on top of everything else. Somehow I doubt it is a stencil. Could be a limited production to test the idea.
 
I used to be married to a trumpet player. Also, because I know a thing or two about JW York and Couesnon, I occasionally get a question about brasswinds in my email. Those poor, poor souls.

Anyhow, there are lots of trumpets that use different bits of plumbing to change from one transposing instrument standard to another. While I haven't seen one, I'd assume that you can get bits of pipe to change a trumpet from high pitch to low pitch, too. The other thing is that instruments with the extra bits of plumbing are not necessarily big-time expensive. They're also still available today.

As far as the trumpet being made by Pierret, I don't see any reason why not. Both Yanagisawa and J. Keilwerth, two "saxophone only" companies, made a few other instruments (flutes and brasswinds, respectively). However, I'm not sufficiently versed in trumpet makes and models to say something like, "This Pierret trumpet is a stencil." I can say that Pierret isn't listed in the Horn-u-Copia catalog, which is the place I generally refer brasswind folks to. That implies that the Pierret trumpet is likely a stencil.
 
Yes, I know with brasswinds since there is no question of tonehole spacing that it's not a problem to add plumbing. Yes, it could certainly be a stencil, though it sorta raises the question of why they would bother...but then they are French...

I was most surprised to find out that Yani made flutes at one point. I actually wonder if they were also stencils.
 
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