Untitled Document
     
Advertisement Click to advertise with us!
     

Serial Number and Model Listing

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#42
Hey, they're *needle* springs. Get it? Where y'all going?

I do also like the look of that clarinet. It's definitely got the "old" feel with all the open holes and you've got the "new" feel with the additional keywork.
 
#43
Hey, they're *needle* springs. Get it? Where y'all going?

I do also like the look of that clarinet. It's definitely got the "old" feel with all the open holes and you've got the "new" feel with the additional keywork.
Eye see your point, sew no need to explain.
 
#44
On the springs, if you read Theodore Boehm's book on the flute, you'll see he recommends using english sewing needles (suitably blued/tempered) as springs. Maybe this was a retro mod (assuming flute and clarinet practice overlapped).
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#45
All woodwinds overlapped and shared benefits from one on others. Boehm-Klose is an obvious example. Claude Laurent's idea of mounting posts to a horn's body, rather than doing intriguing woodwork, etc.

At one point you had all flat springs and those were replaced with needle springs. That was a significant event!
 

tictactux

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
#46
All woodwinds overlapped and shared benefits from one on others. Boehm-Klose is an obvious example. Claude Laurent's idea of mounting posts to a horn's body, rather than doing intriguing woodwork, etc.

At one point you had all flat springs and those were replaced with needle springs. That was a significant event!
Now imagine they had (ab)used patent laws the same way it is done today...
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#47
Use & abuse of patent and copyright laws is for a different thread :p.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#48
Martin Freres Clarinet Serial Numbers.

From their website:
Martin Freres clarinets are not easy to date because the serial numbers do not correlate well to a date stamp. Instead the serial numbers were used as much to designate a country or a specific distributor to which the clarinet was sold as it was to index the clarinet stock.

There is currently no simple way to determine the exact year of manufacture because serial number records were lost many years ago. The Martin Freres Company is in the process of gathering data to reconstruct the Martin Freres clarinet serial number timeline, including the evolutionary changes in key material, post placement, tone-hole placement, etc. However, it will be quite some time before the final results of the research are to be published.

At this time, our data shows no correlation between a given clarinet design and a date sold. This means that clarinets built in the 1940′s may have been stored for many years before released to a distributor. Conversely, clarinets manufactured in the 1950′s and 60′s may have been based upon a design from the 1920′s or even earlier.

If you have a Martin Freres clarinet, and you have first-hand knowledge of its history, we would be very pleased to hear from you. Let us know the model, serial number and the date of manufacture or date of purchase so that together we can reconstruct the Martin Freres clarinet serial number timeline.

To submit your data, please email: research@MartinFreres.net
Emphasis mine.

Three other notes:

* According to their website, they produced instruments from 1840 until the 1960s. The company was "dissolved" in 1992. I do not know exactly when they restarted manufacture, but it seems likely it was this year or just a couple years ago. They're now made in the USA.
* Also according to their website, clarinets produced from the 1930s to 1960s are student or intermediate horns. This is contradicted on another page on the same website, so YMMV.
* All of the Martin Freres saxophones I've seen are stencils. This does not necessarily include instruments made under the "Thibouville" name from the 1890s to 1927.

Model list, post 1946 to 1966:
1946-1960: 1740 Deluxe. Rosewood. Professional.
1946-1960: 1740. Grenadilla. Professional.
1940s-1960s: Classic. Grenadilla. German silver keywork. Intermediate.
1946-1966: LaMonte Models 1 & 2. Grenadilla. German silver keywork. Intermediate.
1940s-1950s: Coudet. Hard rubber. German silver keywork. Student/intermediate.

Modern model list:
B-88: Student. Ebonite. Nickel-plated keys.
B-88A: Advanced student. Ebonite. Nickel-plated keys. Cocobolo barrel.
B-34: Advanced student Eb soprano. Composite (polymer). Nickel-plated keys.
E-34: Advanced student. Ebonite. Nickel-plated keys.
B-34A: Advanced student. Composite (polymer). Nickel-plated keys. Cocobolo barrel.
B-44: Advanced. Rosewood. Nickel-plated keys. Grenadilla and cocobolo barrels.
B-66: Advanced. Grenadilla. Nickel-plated keys. Two barrels.
B-66A: Advanced. Nickel-plated keys. Grenadilla and cocobolo barrels.
B-77: Advanced. Grenadilla. Silver or gold plated keys.
E-77: Advanced Eb soprano. Grenadilla. Silver-plated keys.

There is some nice prose on their website regarding value information for your vintage horn. I think that their comments about boxwood clarinets are a little inflated. They do have some rather cheap prices for repair, tho.

There's quite a bit of info at ClarinetPages.net.
 
#49
Since de Dolnet serialnumberlist is so crude I came up with the following. If we have a few serial-numbers for wich we know the date for sure, we can deduct the other serial numbers (we already know start and end of a series). Since I own a Dolnet Belair with serialnr. 53805C (alongside my 1951 Selmer Super Action), I started calculating the estimated date and come up with 1957-1959.
I would like to ask this community to be on the lookout of any Dolnet Belair with estimated date and serialnumber. If the date is 100% sure, let me know (also let me know of any other since they help me confirm my calculations). The more I have the sure ones, the more my estimate will be accurate. I will adjust my list accordingly. I already have 57307C/1959 from an owner in Holland who still had the original invoice. For now I make abstraction of time between built-date and sale-date.

This is the list I already have:
Dolnet.jpg
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#50
From my first post in this thread:

1935 ...............Series I..................1
1940 ...............Series II..............1200
1950 ...............Bel Air ...............34000
1952 ..............< Imperial >.........40000
1953 ...............Bel Air ..............45000
1970 => 1980....M70 ...............80000 =>100000
1980 => 1984 ...Universal............?????

Again, this is a synthetic list that's based on just a few folks' recollections. The only real things I can say are:

* While "Bel Air" is a name stamped on a lot of Dolnet horns, I eventually found a flyer saying that the official model name is "Artist."
* One would assume that all M70s were made in the 70s :).

Of course, this also disregards Dolnets that predate what I've called "Series I."

There's some great stuff on the Luthier Vents blog regarding Dolnet. The problem I have is that I don't read or speak French. I can have Google Translate translate a paragraph or two at a time, then run it through Pete Transliterate, but that makes me go all cross-eyed in a few minutes.
 
#51
Hi Pete, thanks for the update, but maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm offering a way to deduct the year for any Dolnet serial number (since there is no complete list available) based on serial numbers we are sure of. For that any serial numbers provided by the members of this forum with (even an estimate) of the year built, can help me increase the accuracy of my list.
So I call on the members to help me collect data.

Thanks
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#52
I've noticed that my original link list points to a lot of dead links. I'm working on an update. It'll probably be up by the weekend.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#53
Posted. It's rather plain looking, but it does the job!
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#54
#55
Hello! I've come across a flute by The Edgware Boosey & Hawkes London that has a serial number of 184412 that states is Made in London below the serial number. Any idea how old this flute is? Is it made of solid silver, nickel silver, or plated? I've also come across a flute with the brand name Armstrong Elkhart Ind. Model 104 and below that is 2-3723, I don't see a serial number or maybe the 2-3723 is the serial number. It appears to be silver. I didn't see any info on your model lists. If anyone has any info on these two flutes I'd greatly appreciate your help! I want to know if it's worth getting them overhauled into playing condition again. Thank you for your time!
 
Last edited:

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
#56
Hello! I've come across a flute by The Edgware Boosey & Hawkes London that has a serial number of 184412 that states is Made in London below the serial number. Any idea how old this flute is?
Go to the first post in this thread and check out the attachments.

Is it made of solid silver, nickel silver, or plated?
There aren't any serial number to material made out of/plating charts and it's sometimes hard to see a difference between silver plate and sterling silver. I would, however, recommend going to our flute subforum and posting there and post pics.

I've also come across a flute with the brand name Armstrong Elkhart Ind. Model 104 and below that is 2-3723, I don't see a serial number or maybe the 2-3723 is the serial number. It appears to be silver.
IIRC, the 104 is a student model. If the serial number chart on linked on my website (again, see first post) isn't sufficient, I'd recommend writing to Conn-Selmer, the company that owns Armstrong. There are links on their website.

EDIT: forgot one.

I want to know if it's worth getting them overhauled into playing condition again. Thank you for your time!
Go to eBay and look for sold instruments to determine the value of the instruments, both in the condition your horns are currently in and how much they're worth in "perfect" condition. That'll tell you if they're worth restoring.
 
Top