tárogató Restoration

PrincessJ

PrincessJ

Recently I found a very unusual tárogató with seven keys, made of what looks like African Rosewood, lacquered with a deep burgundy color... very beautiful instrument (see album for the pre-restoration pictures).

The entire middle tenon (metal) was lodged in to the bottom joint, as whatever was fastening it to the upper joint disintegrated over time, the instrument was in storage for a very long period of time.
It took over two hours of careful work to pry out the string-wrapped metal tenon, and blood was drawn in the process... somehow the string "swelled" as the wood shrunk around it, it wasn't going anywhere without a good fight.

After all that drama, I noticed that the area around the tenon socket was fairly weak and a bit rotted from neglect and prolonged exposure to environmental "basement" moisture... perhaps a little wood-in-a-tube coating should help sort that out, or a bit of grafting... I'm still assessing the damages, it's the area "underneath" the ring. It's not the end of the world but it's discomforting as I'd prefer it to not chip away (it's already began chipping) and have to do any serious wood rebuilding.

Now also since the wood is stained/lacquered, there are some obvious "chips" and scrapes exposing the bare wood color... already in the process of taking care of it, that's purely a cosmetic issue and is very simple to rid safely.

What's spooky is, even though it was a neglected decoration for who knows how long, and not to mention it's obvious antiquity, the keys look freshly polished (however are not, because of some rusty looking bits around the register key, and a few others, but minor) and the springs are in freaky good condition, strong and nearly rust-free, likely won't need to be replaced for quite some time.
On the other hand, the pads on the instrument looked as if they had never been replaced, all green and swollen and generally gross.

Other than that it was in fairly good condition for it's age and state of "neglect" and has a lot of life left in it.


So...

I decided to spoil myself (and the instrument) with some very nice leather saxophone pads... so rest assured this is going to be a lovely instrument to play.

Of all my experience as a hobby-technician... working on this tárogató has thus far been the most rewarding and exciting.

I'm planning on having a new mouthpiece made for it though. The old one is, well, old, the inside was a bit rotted, and it's going to need a fairly thick bite pad, there's a huge tooth dent on the top, now keep in mind this instrument has the "clarinet style" wood mouthpiece with the tenon attached versus the mouthpiece going over a tenon saxophone-style. It's an itty bitty tenon.

Anyways thought I'd let you all know what I've been up to lately... I'll take some after pics in a few days.
 
Thus far, the re-staining/lacquering of the chipped areas has gone quite well, you would have to look at it extremely careful with a powerful magnifying glass to know that there ever was a chip and a touch-up, especially in the tenon socket area which has been officially re-built with grafting and wood filler, stained, and lacquered. It seals like a dream with the cork and has no trouble with expansion or contraction as of yet. I was very careful in ensuring the material would allow it.

The instrument is awaiting one pad which was on back-order... the rest of the pads are here and ready.

I oiled the bore after ridding a load of dry rot in both midsections, the bell, and the mouthpiece, and the wood has officially been brought back to life!

Pictures tonight, promised. And perhaps an action video or two within the next several weeks once I get everything adjusted including myself.
 
From your description it sounds like a very successful conclusion to what I would probably consider an impossible project. Congratulations are in order for sure!! – I await with bated (baited? I could never quite figure that one out) breath for the photos and video...
 
PrincessJ said:
Thus far, the re-staining/lacquering of the chipped areas has gone quite well, you would have to look at it extremely careful with a powerful magnifying glass to know that there ever was a chip and a touch-up, especially in the tenon socket area which has been officially re-built with grafting and wood filler, stained, and lacquered. It seals like a dream with the cork and has no trouble with expansion or contraction as of yet. I was very careful in ensuring the material would allow it.

The instrument is awaiting one pad which was on back-order... the rest of the pads are here and ready.

I oiled the bore after ridding a load of dry rot in both midsections, the bell, and the mouthpiece, and the wood has officially been brought back to life!

Pictures tonight, promised. And perhaps an action video or two within the next several weeks once I get everything adjusted including myself.
Click to expand...

What a coincidence - I just restored a taragot that sat in storage for over 10 years. And I made a brand new ebony mouthpiece for it.

George
 
Old Dick said:
– I await with bated (baited? I could never quite figure that one out) breath for the photos and video...
Click to expand...

It's bated, an old term that means "withdrawn" or "held back". It shares a common root with "rebate".

In Hamlet, the hero is provided with a sword for the fight at the end of the play, but his enemies carefully ensure that the one he receives has a 'bated' end, one that is not sharp. Actors used 'bated' swords to avoid injury during fight scenes.
 
thanks

Many thanks - the Hamlet reference does add a whole new meaning to me for the old saw "fish or cut bate/bait." Damned homonyms anyway....

Re taragatos/taragotoes: I seem to recall a discussion as to size/type of the instrument some time back and just this morning ran across the attached ca. 1900 advertisement.

​
 
PrincessJ said:
Recently I found a very unusual tárogató with seven keys, made of what looks like African Rosewood, lacquered with a deep burgundy color... very beautiful instrument (see album for the pre-restoration pictures).

The entire middle tenon (metal) was lodged in to the bottom joint, as whatever was fastening it to the upper joint disintegrated over time, the instrument was in storage for a very long period of time.
It took over two hours of careful work to pry out the string-wrapped metal tenon, and blood was drawn in the process... somehow the string "swelled" as the wood shrunk around it, it wasn't going anywhere without a good fight.

After all that drama, I noticed that the area around the tenon socket was fairly weak and a bit rotted from neglect and prolonged exposure to environmental "basement" moisture... perhaps a little wood-in-a-tube coating should help sort that out, or a bit of grafting... I'm still assessing the damages, it's the area "underneath" the ring. It's not the end of the world but it's discomforting as I'd prefer it to not chip away (it's already began chipping) and have to do any serious wood rebuilding.

Now also since the wood is stained/lacquered, there are some obvious "chips" and scrapes exposing the bare wood color... already in the process of taking care of it, that's purely a cosmetic issue and is very simple to rid safely.

What's spooky is, even though it was a neglected decoration for who knows how long, and not to mention it's obvious antiquity, the keys look freshly polished (however are not, because of some rusty looking bits around the register key, and a few others, but minor) and the springs are in freaky good condition, strong and nearly rust-free, likely won't need to be replaced for quite some time.
On the other hand, the pads on the instrument looked as if they had never been replaced, all green and swollen and generally gross.

Other than that it was in fairly good condition for it's age and state of "neglect" and has a lot of life left in it.


So...

I decided to spoil myself (and the instrument) with some very nice leather saxophone pads... so rest assured this is going to be a lovely instrument to play.

Of all my experience as a hobby-technician... working on this tárogató has thus far been the most rewarding and exciting.

I'm planning on having a new mouthpiece made for it though. The old one is, well, old, the inside was a bit rotted, and it's going to need a fairly thick bite pad, there's a huge tooth dent on the top, now keep in mind this instrument has the "clarinet style" wood mouthpiece with the tenon attached versus the mouthpiece going over a tenon saxophone-style. It's an itty bitty tenon.

Anyways thought I'd let you all know what I've been up to lately... I'll take some after pics in a few days.
Click to expand...

I just saw the pictures. Looks like a very rare instrument indeed. When I was buying mine (from someone I know), he had 2 available. The one I chose looks like a Stowasser copy perhaps. The other one had much simpler keywork, like yours. But it was made more recently, and the owner actually mentioned he'd prefer to sell me the other one as the simpler one was made for him specifically.

I would love to hear the sound, if you ever get around to making the video.

Does it play in 440 pitch? The one I bought sat in a box for over a decade (why does that always happen to these things?) and I suspect the wood shrunk a bit. I could see that on the finish, as it has a little crackle effect in the upper joint. When I first played it, the second octave was a good 1/2 step flat, no matter what I did. I made a few tweaks and now it plays in pitch in both octaves.

George
 
Gheorghe,
That's very interesting, I suspect that my instrument was also a custom made instrument, the giveaway being the metal inlay where a key usually would be.

I stil can't find a similar instrument.

The instrument is almost completed, I had to do an entire re-build of the mouthpiece tenon socket, re-bored it, sealed it, and it works beautifully. The mouthpiece is working after a few tweaks, and sounds fantastic.

A=442 according to my tuner. I can easily lip it back to 440 with no issues, the tone/pitch is incredibly responsive.

I also fixed up the toneholes, which were chipped and rough, and sealed them. They seal gorgeously now, before I could barely get them to seal with my fingers alone.
 
PrincessJ said:
Gheorghe,
That's very interesting, I suspect that my instrument was also a custom made instrument, the giveaway being the metal inlay where a key usually would be.

I stil can't find a similar instrument.

The instrument is almost completed, I had to do an entire re-build of the mouthpiece tenon socket, re-bored it, sealed it, and it works beautifully. The mouthpiece is working after a few tweaks, and sounds fantastic.

A=442 according to my tuner. I can easily lip it back to 440 with no issues, the tone/pitch is incredibly responsive.

I also fixed up the toneholes, which were chipped and rough, and sealed them. They seal gorgeously now, before I could barely get them to seal with my fingers alone.
Click to expand...

Did you make a custom cone-shaped reamer for it? How did you bore it?

I measured the inner diameter on both ends of the lower joint and calculated the taper (it is 17.5:1, which I'm told is what the Stowassers have). Figuring the entire length should be a perfect cone, I extrapolated those measurements to the upper joint. From what I could measure, the thin end had a bit too much wood, which I'm told happens when it sits around for a long time and the wood shrinks. So I turned a maple cone with that taper, attached various grits of sand paper (ending with 400), and re-shaped the top part of the upper joint slightly. That brought the 2nd octave up to pitch, and it seems to have made the whole thing a bit more sensitive to overblowing also. That tells me the octaves match closer, but that is only a theory.

Anyway, it is a joy to play.

When you say you "sealed" the bore, what do you mean? Aside from some almond oil, I never applied anything to the bore.

George
 
Gheorghe said:
Did you make a custom cone-shaped reamer for it? How did you bore it?

I measured the inner diameter on both ends of the lower joint and calculated the taper (it is 17.5:1, which I'm told is what the Stowassers have). Figuring the entire length should be a perfect cone, I extrapolated those measurements to the upper joint. From what I could measure, the thin end had a bit too much wood, which I'm told happens when it sits around for a long time and the wood shrinks. So I turned a maple cone with that taper, attached various grits of sand paper (ending with 400), and re-shaped the top part of the upper joint slightly. That brought the 2nd octave up to pitch, and it seems to have made the whole thing a bit more sensitive to overblowing also. That tells me the octaves match closer, but that is only a theory.

Anyway, it is a joy to play.

When you say you "sealed" the bore, what do you mean? Aside from some almond oil, I never applied anything to the bore.

George
Click to expand...

Would you mind taking us through the math used to come up with the 17.5:1 taper? I am familiar with dividing the difference in the diameters with the length, but it is not clear to me how this is transferred into a ratio. Thanks.
 
jbtsax said:
Would you mind taking us through the math used to come up with the 17.5:1 taper? I am familiar with dividing the difference in the diameters with the length, but it is not clear to me how this is transferred into a ratio. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert on this. I basically had to do what I thought was the thing to do, since conical wooden reed instruments are virtually unknown in sax/clarinet repair shops around me.

I would have to look at the scraps of paper where I wrote these things down. I do have a minor degree in math, but I remember thinking about this one for a while at that time:). I believe you use the difference in diameters (call it X), and measure the length (L). Then you divide both values by X to get "X/X : L/X", or "1 : L/X". I think that's what I did.

In the end, I only removed very little wood (I was very cautious).

George
 
Thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity I measured a soprano sax, an early Buffet, to compare tapers.

The result was length = 640 mm (from end of neck to beginning of bell flare)
Neck diameter = 8.34 mm, large end diameter 53.66 mm

Using your formula with these figures produces a taper of 1 : 14.12. I had assumed the tárogató and soprano sax would have a more similar taper than this. Certainly more examples would be needed before drawing any firm conclusions.

It was a very clever idea to make a tapered shaft to use as a sanding tool. It reminded me of the luthier's technique of sticking sandpaper on the curved top of the violin and then using that to sand to feet of the bridge to perfectly match the contour.
 
jbtsax said:
Thanks for the reply. Out of curiosity I measured a soprano sax, an early Buffet, to compare tapers.

The result was length = 640 mm (from end of neck to beginning of bell flare)
Neck diameter = 8.34 mm, large end diameter 53.66 mm

Using your formula with these figures produces a taper of 1 : 14.12. I had assumed the tárogató and soprano sax would have a more similar taper than this. Certainly more examples would be needed before drawing any firm conclusions.

It was a very clever idea to make a tapered shaft to use as a sanding tool. It reminded me of the luthier's technique of sticking sandpaper on the curved top of the violin and then using that to sand to feet of the bridge to perfectly match the contour.
Click to expand...

Actually I checked my notes and the taper was more like 1:18 - even more of a difference. I'm not worried about the actual taper, as long as the thing plays in pitch now.

A real reamer would have been better, but in a pinch, the home made solution did the trick. :)
Thanks for your interest in this.

As a side note:
I actually fitted a few viola bridges, and there the sand paper method works. But I also built a double bass recently, and using sandpaper to fit bass bridges is looked down upon by most luthiers. The preferred and more accurate method is using sharp chisels to get a fuller fit.
 
Gheorghe said:
Did you make a custom cone-shaped reamer for it? How did you bore it?

I measured the inner diameter on both ends of the lower joint and calculated the taper (it is 17.5:1, which I'm told is what the Stowassers have). Figuring the entire length should be a perfect cone, I extrapolated those measurements to the upper joint. From what I could measure, the thin end had a bit too much wood, which I'm told happens when it sits around for a long time and the wood shrinks. So I turned a maple cone with that taper, attached various grits of sand paper (ending with 400), and re-shaped the top part of the upper joint slightly. That brought the 2nd octave up to pitch, and it seems to have made the whole thing a bit more sensitive to overblowing also. That tells me the octaves match closer, but that is only a theory.

Anyway, it is a joy to play.

When you say you "sealed" the bore, what do you mean? Aside from some almond oil, I never applied anything to the bore.

George
Click to expand...

Custom shaped. As far as my math goes, I myself would have to dig up the "math paper scraps" that may still be floating around in the basement. I also did sand-paper adjustments by hand to get the instrument to play in pitch. It was a long bother but if it works, it works.

By sealed, I meant bore oil, thorough and allowed to sit without playing for about a week.

I still feel like something is slightly off in the lower register but my gut tells me the instrument was always that way, as it overblows beautifully. It still prefers the upper register tone wise, and has a rich and "grindy" tone in the lower.

I guess you could call me a "thrifty" luthier?
Less equipment and lots of time and brain-ache.
 
I've done similar restorations. My instrument was much like yours, and made of a similar wood. I re-built the middle, and the top tenon sockets, using a cylindrical reamer in knowing that for the particular bore of that tárogató, the difference would be minor if not for the better.
I ended up with a rich, heavy tone and incredible smoothness through the registers, and an extremely resonant lower register. The reed I use is a level 2 and a half Bb clarinet reed and an Eb ligature.
I've had my fair share of experiments (some successful, some tragic) working with boring techniques, and have come to the conclusion that the math provides the base in which to begin and shape your work, however the true end result is a matter of either fantastic machinery or personal, time-consuming labor.

I'm a proud and seasoned teacher at my personal school of hard knocks and can obviously be credited for having the most bruises on the scalp area. :p
 
spooky said:
I've done similar restorations. My instrument was much like yours, and made of a similar wood. I re-built the middle, and the top tenon sockets, using a cylindrical reamer in knowing that for the particular bore of that tárogató, the difference would be minor if not for the better.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to read posts like these by you and Princess. I didn't know if I was crazy doing this to a $1,000+ instrument, but the truth is, local shops have no idea what a taragot is.

I use #1.5 RICO reads, and I usually shave a bit off still. I play Romanian and Hungarian music. The instrument is initially flat by about 20 cents, but after a 2 minutes of playing or blowing warm air in it, it comes up to pitch.

Are either of you able to play above the 2nd octave G? Once in a blue moon, I can get the high A, but that's it. Realistically, the 2nd octave G is my last usable note. But I've only been playing since January, so hopefully it's a matter of skill.

A very good musician from the Rajko Band of Budapest. HU recently told me that each tárogató is unique and you have to find your own fingering specific to that instrument. I don't buy that for 1 second, but I guess he had to do what he had to do to make it work, and he is a fantastic player. Before I made alterations, that suggestion seemed like exactly the thing to do, since my instrument started off exactly 1 step flat.

George
 
jbtsax said:
All of this talk about taragotos and hearing one played has peaked my interest in owning one. Can anyone who is familiar with this instrument tell me anything about this one for sale on eBay, including a fair price to expect to pay? Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150685857789?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Click to expand...

The seller is in Arad, Romania, and the instrument looks like the "Timis" model, made in Timisoara, RO. It is considered a lower-grade instrument, and they have their problems. But sometimes you get lucky. I'm buying one from a friend who bought his in person, over 10 years ago, in Romania. It is not as good as the Hungarian one that I own, but I made it playable with similar modifications and a new mouth piece.

You're taking a chance with eBay, but that goes for anything. You may get lucky, or not so lucky. That price is fantastic, but I won't be surprised if it goes over $1,000 in the 5 days left.

Google the "Timis" taragot/tárogató, maybe you'll find the same references I found.

George
 
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