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tárogató Restoration

John, I just sold mine. I couldn't get it to sound like the one in this video. To me the nasal tone was a distinct turnoff. I really tried, with a number of mouthpieces and setups. The sound was easy to make, but hard to make sound good... to me. YMMV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjegJivQK48

That's funny, in that video, at times the taragot sounds a bit off to my ears. Not one of my favorites. I realize of course that this is a live performance and not a studio recording.

George
 
Do you have a favorite tárogató performance on YouTube?

I sure do:)

Hold on to something...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeWzWYBcTLk

Same dude playing in a Romanian wedding (nevermind the weird acted out bride abduction scene):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjjjmZqJIdE

A little slower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXjV0jhoxIQ&feature=related

A bit too much synth for my taste, but accurate playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFllN5_tQ9A&feature=related

More Hungarian style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_WV6N5ilVc


George
 
Thank you for these links.

The tone quality of the last video is the closest to my taste. What an expressive instrument!
 
Thank you for these links.

The tone quality of the last video is the closest to my taste. What an expressive instrument!

True, different tastes. Hungarians in particular love that sound. Their vibrato is also different. It feels very nervous to me, vs. the Romanian style, where the vibrato sounds much "wider" to my ears.

Also, the impression I get is that in Romania, the preferred sound is more metallic, and in-your-face, whereas in Hungary it is a little more mellow and closer to a clarinet.
 
Excellent choices Gheorghe. We should break this out to a separite thread so that it is easier to find.

Glad you enjoyed them Gandalfe. I'm glad that there is actually a dedicated subforum to the instrument here.

I do have questions for existing taragot players, since I'm very new to the instrument - such as, any tips on playing above the 2nd octave G :)

George
 
I'm glad to read posts like these by you and Princess. I didn't know if I was crazy doing this to a $1,000+ instrument, but the truth is, local shops have no idea what a taragot is.

[snippet]

Are either of you able to play above the 2nd octave G? Once in a blue moon, I can get the high A, but that's it. Realistically, the 2nd octave G is my last usable note. But I've only been playing since January, so hopefully it's a matter of skill.


George


I believe there are plenty more of us whom treat exotic and expensive woodwind restoration in a similar way. Local shops are never the best answer, that is one thing for sure.

2nd octave A is my limit with this particular instrument, it's a bit tough to squeak out but it fits where it needs to. I rarely find reasons to use it.

Thank you for sharing the links, I've enjoyed analyzing the different tone potentials of the instrument , the fourth video down is the closest to the tone of my tárogató... minus the "synthing". Not quite a sax sound, yet not quite so "clear" as the one in the last video.
 
Hi guyz!

Funny thing, I bought that exact tárogató. It is not a Timis model AFAIK, as it has (unusually) full plateau keys on the bottom joint.

The Timis taragots are usually bad copies of the four ring Stowassers, and have a secondary Eb key for the left-hand pinky, at least all the ones I have seen are like that. This is a different bird altogether. Full plateau keys are quite rare, and the thumb Bb is also different from a Timis.

Seller is a guy who is friends with members of a local orchestra, and the old guys who retire often sell their instruments for a bit of extra cash.

Seller thinks that this one is Hungarian. I am waiting for delivery, and will report back.

I'm seeing a lot of Timis ones on Ebay: one just went for $1500. Crazy. If you look a bit, you will find lots of decent taragots on Romanian selling sites, but good ones generally go for upwards of 2000 euros, with Stowassers starting about 3000 (I was tempted...). You can find Timis models for about 300 euros--forget eBay for those...
 
The Timis taragots are usually bad copies of the four ring Stowassers, and have a secondary Eb key for the left-hand pinky, at least all the ones I have seen are like that.

That's funny, I have a Hungarian made taragot (rosewood) that has this left hand pinky key, and then a Romanian Timis model that does not have it.

I play Eb exclusively using that left hand key, as opposed to the right hand pinky roller. Nobody taught me how to play, and I wonder if I developed a bad habit by doing that. For me it's hard to cover the "C" hole while also pressing that roller with my right hand pinky - not enough room there usually. But since many taragots don't have that left hand option (including my other taragot), I should probably learn how to play it both ways.

George
 
What I am reading is that there is no standardization at all with taragots in terms of keywork. You have two ring and four ring models; earlier ones with no rings, and occasionally ones like mine with two rings at the top and plateau keys on the bottom. It's important to have double octave keys, as this is the only way to reach above the second octave G; some models have automatic octave keys, and others have manual octave keys. If you have manual keys, it is important to release the bottom one when you press the top one, or you are not going to get above the G or the A at best.

The left-hand Eb is really optional: Albert system clarinets and saxes have no such thing and people get along fine without it. The problem with using the left hand Eb is that you cannot do easy intervals between Eb and C# or B. Right hand Eb is your main one and you really should learn to use it.

All the Timis models I have seen pictured come in cheap cases and have the Eb key, but that might not be the case for all. I have seen pix of Timis horns both lacquered black and stained (supposedly made of palisander wood), but there might be a number of different models, or some might be other postwar cheapies.
 
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What I am reading is that there is no standardization at all with taragots in terms of keywork. You have two ring and four ring models; earlier ones with no rings, and occasionally ones like mine with two rings at the top and plateau keys on the bottom. It's important to have double octave keys, as this is the only way to reach above the second octave G; some models have automatic octave keys, and others have manual octave keys. If you have manual keys, it is important to release the bottom one when you press the top one, or you are not going to get above the G or the A at best.

I'm new to reeds/reed terminology. By automatic octave keys, I assume you mean what I have: 2 LH thumb octave keys. When I press only the 2nd one, both are automatically engaged (open). When nothing is pressed, both are closed. I can only achieve the second octave A (written "H") when moving to it from a lower note without interrupting the air flow. That gives me hope that it's a matter of throat control and at some point I'll be able to pull it off consistently.

Somehow I always felt I should not be relying on that left hand Eb key:)

George
 
I'm new to reeds/reed terminology. By automatic octave keys, I assume you mean what I have: 2 LH thumb octave keys. When I press only the 2nd one, both are automatically engaged (open). When nothing is pressed, both are closed. I can only achieve the second octave A (written "H") when moving to it from a lower note without interrupting the air flow. That gives me hope that it's a matter of throat control and at some point I'll be able to pull it off consistently.

Somehow I always felt I should not be relying on that left hand Eb key:)

George

An automatic octave key only has one thumb touch, but the upper vent key is automatically activated when you pass from G to A. On oboe you also have many models with two octave keys. So on the taragot there is no way to open only the upper vent and not the lower one? That is different than other woodwinds. I'll have to wait until mine comes and then I can comment with more knowledge. Coming from Romania that might take a month :(
 
As Gheorghe says, on most double octave key tárogatós there is no way to open only the upper hole. The first key opens the lower hole and the second key opens both.

My Stephen Fox tárogató has a double key semi automatic octave mechanism where the lower hole closes when the upper one opens. This makes it very easy to get the notes from A upwards. That instrument is also designed so that the second register D and D# are played by half-holeing the LH index finger hole rather than using either octave key. These two notes are very sharp if you try to use the first octave key. I think my instrument may be unique in both these respects.
 
As Gheorghe says, on most double octave key tárogatós there is no way to open only the upper hole. The first key opens the lower hole and the second key opens both.

My Stephen Fox tárogató has a double key semi automatic octave mechanism where the lower hole closes when the upper one opens. This makes it very easy to get the notes from A upwards. That instrument is also designed so that the second register D and D# are played by half-holeing the LH index finger hole rather than using either octave key. These two notes are very sharp if you try to use the first octave key. I think my instrument may be unique in both these respects.

Interesing! I read your posts here when I first got the instrument. I actually contacted Mr. Fox about my tuning issues originally (December 2010). He is the one that mentioned that octaves might be narrow due to incorrect taper in the upper joint. It was literally impossible not to be 1 step flat in the 2nd octave, with 3.5 reeds. I made the alteration and no problems now.

I do find that when using the 1st octave key for C, D, E notes in the 2nd octave, I have to adjust my embouchure a bit to bring them down, as they tend to be sharp. At first I was concerned that I screwed up my instrument by altering the bore, but having to "lip down" a few notes in the 2nd octave is so much more manageable than what I had before. Sometimes I don't even use the octave key when playing those 3 notes, since I can flip to it quite easily with throat/embouchure. Is this a bad habit? The 1st octave key for me becomes necessary starting on the 2nd octave F through the G. As I mentioned, sometimes I can squeeze the high A using the 2nd octave key, but it's like 50/50 for me. And the instrument has to be well-played in for that to happen, 15 minutes at least.

By the way, when I'm naming notes, I am naming the real sounded notes, not notes that would be written for a Bb instrument. In other words, my "A"=440Hz.

I'm glad I can get some help with this thing!

George
 
So on the taragot there is no way to open only the upper vent and not the lower one?

Exactly. Unless you have something unique that Mr. Dibbs above describes.
In fact, I'm still not clear at which point you are supposed to switch from the 1st to the 2nd octave key. Fingering charts that can be found online tell you, I guess. But I also talked to a professional player from Budapest who told me that he had to find "his own" fingering to make things work.

George
 
Exactly. Unless you have something unique that Mr. Dibbs above describes.
In fact, I'm still not clear at which point you are supposed to switch from the 1st to the 2nd octave key. Fingering charts that can be found online tell you, I guess. But I also talked to a professional player from Budapest who told me that he had to find "his own" fingering to make things work.

George

Yes, I see that the information I had was not good: all taragots with double octave keys keep both vents open at the same time. However since the range is generally said to be from written Bb to C two octaves above, it would seem that the arrangement works. Another player says that he can get two and a half octaves, which is basically what the oboe can do.

BTW the second key is opened when playing A and above; the first being fine until G#. This is the same on all conical woodwinds, including sax and oboe. Interestingly, the oboe also uses a half hole for D (but not D#); the sax works fine for 2nd octave D with the lower octave vent open. Benade has written an authoritative treatise on register hole design for conical woodwinds that; if followed, might materially improve the octave intonation for taragots. I will have to wait until mine arrives to comment further on that point.
 
Yes, I see that the information I had was not good: all taragots with double octave keys keep both vents open at the same time. However since the range is generally said to be from written Bb to C two octaves above, it would seem that the arrangement works. Another player says that he can get two and a half octaves, which is basically what the oboe can do.

BTW the second key is opened when playing A and above; the first being fine until G#. This is the same on all conical woodwinds, including sax and oboe. Interestingly, the oboe also uses a half hole for D (but not D#); the sax works fine for 2nd octave D with the lower octave vent open. Benade has written an authoritative treatise on register hole design for conical woodwinds that; if followed, might materially improve the octave intonation for taragots. I will have to wait until mine arrives to comment further on that point.

Have you played a taragot before, or is this one you're waiting for your first?

Let me know how it goes when you get it - it is quite a unique animal!

George
 
All this speak of these fancy key mechanisms is giving me the itch to find myself a more complex instrument. Although my finished instrument plays beautifully, I wouldn't mind trying out some new kinds, I have plenty of free time now to take on another restoration and if I do end up with another conical friend in my collection, believe me, the pictures and stories will be flooding in with lots of learning experience, I assure.

Kymarto, I too would be interested to hear more about your experience with the instrument. It's amazing how unique each tárogató seems to be, not only to work on but to play.

I'm interested in these odd "plateau key" instruments, I've seen pictures and have heard stories about them, but can't seem to find that there are very many of them. They at first reminded me too much like a wooden "soprano sax" to me from what I've seen of a few of them, but as I look at them more, they're growing on me like a chia pet and if I don't act soon I may have to shave. :emoji_astonished:
 
All this speak of these fancy key mechanisms is giving me the itch to find myself a more complex instrument. Although my finished instrument plays beautifully, I wouldn't mind trying out some new kinds, I have plenty of free time now to take on another restoration and if I do end up with another conical friend in my collection, believe me, the pictures and stories will be flooding in with lots of learning experience, I assure.

Kymarto, I too would be interested to hear more about your experience with the instrument. It's amazing how unique each tárogató seems to be, not only to work on but to play.

I'm interested in these odd "plateau key" instruments, I've seen pictures and have heard stories about them, but can't seem to find that there are very many of them. They at first reminded me too much like a wooden "soprano sax" to me from what I've seen of a few of them, but as I look at them more, they're growing on me like a chia pet and if I don't act soon I may have to shave. :emoji_astonished:

Princess, you mentioned that you re-built the mouthpiece tenon on the upper joint. Can you tell me how you did this?

On mine, I noticed that whoever made the instrument was a bit careless with either the reamer or the drill, as the hole in that tenon is not very regular, and a small part of the wall is rather thin. And as you know, that tenon is little, so there isn't that much room for error:)

I haven't had the need to do anything about it, but I was wondering how that kind of repair would be done. I did re-cork mine (all joints), and fixed 2 cracks in the process. I used the thread+superglue method, underneath the cork.

George
 
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