Stuffy throat Bb

Tammi

Tammi

Private woodwind instructor
I have a Selmer Signature Bb soprano that has always had a stuffy throat Bb. Having it set up with cork pads on top and regulated didn't help. I've heard/read that this is a problem with the Signature line.

Would it be benificial to have the register tube opened up a bit, or is there an aftermarket replacement available?
I've found one for Buffet, but not Selmer.
 
I did some enthusiastic Googling and I found that some folks might try to "modify" the size of the register tube (Stephen Fox was mentioned in conjunction with this), but I did not find any mention that Selmer, themselves, actually had this part available or had an aftermarket part available. I couldn't even find something comparable in the Ferree's Tools catalog.

It may be a "E-mail Selmer Paris and see if they know" or Terry or another worthy might have a suggestion.

FWIW, I know that doing the similar operation to a sax (replacing a neck pip) is relatively trivial, but I don't know how difficult it is on clarinet. I'd think it'd be difficult to not destroy the wood.

Researching this, I came across the suggestion to try a different barrel. Have you tried this? Any success?
 
Tammi said:
I have a Selmer Signature Bb soprano that has always had a stuffy throat Bb. Having it set up with cork pads on top and regulated didn't help. I've heard/read that this is a problem with the Signature line.
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No it's not just the Signature line - my outdoors Amati has a similar problem.
Workarounds for me: for loooong Bbs, I use A+3rd trill key, or blow harder (well, not harder, but sharper (as in knife, not as in #) - it's an embouchure/mouth cavity/tongue thing). You might also play around with some creative resonance fingering (RH keys).

What happens if you completely remove the register key (just for a test) - is it better or worse then? If it's getting better, the register hole is undervented, maybe you need the register key cork a bit more tapered. If it's not, well, then some tube modification (inner diameter and/or length) may be necessary.
 
Tammi,

I don't know anything about your clarinet background--maybe this is way too elementary.

It might be worth making sure the tube is clean. Take the key off, and very carefully clean any gunk out of the tube with a soft pipe cleaner. Don't scratch anything with the inner wire!

Throat B-flat is almost always a "stuffy" note on clarinets compared to the notes close to it. The problem is that the thumb key hole is generally optimized size-wise to function as a register vent--but on the B-flat, it has to function as a tone hole. A larger hole would produce a clearer B-flat, but at the expense of proper function as a register vent.

Like Pete says, it's possible that a well-selected barrel could improve the situation. But again this is possibly at the expense of other things. Besides, the same could be said for a different reed or mouthpiece. Or clarinet. (Or clarinetist.)

Some things clarinetists do to improve the B-flat (and other throat tones):
  • Use excellent breath support.
  • Have a great embouchure.
  • Spend lots of time doing long tones, trying to match the thinner, weaker throat tones to the richer, fuller notes on the instrument.
  • Once you have done all this (a year or five) start to explore "resonance" fingerings. Learn and habituate as many as you can, and know intimately their individual characteristics. There are a number of possibilities here.

Hope that helps.

Bret
 
Yup, pretty elementary stuff.

I've been playing for 37 years and have been teaching and doing basic repads and adjustments for students for about ~10. I've tried everything you have suggested in the past with no improvement to the 'stuffiness'. Long barrel, short barrel, tapered, cylindrical,,,, Stuffy.
Vandoren mouthpieces(B45 Dot, 5RV Lyre), Selmer C85's, Knox, O'Brian, Larry Combs, Portnoy, and a few others. Vandoren reeds, Hemke, Rico...just about anything available in my area for clarinet. Stuffy.

I did not set up the Signature. I had the tech who services the Grand Rapids Symphony do it. It was stuffy before the change to cork pads on top.

There are times when alternate fingerings just won't work.

I currently own and play several sops. A '71 Buffet Evette Master Model, a set of 30's vintage Selmer Full Boehm, the Ledoux Artist, an Abbott Silver plated thing, and an Artley plastic student clarinet. That doesn't include my eefer, or the other 4 Albert sys. clarinets I doodle around with from time to time. The Signature is the only one with a difficult throat Bb.
 
I've gone down this road too. This one note keeps my from playing an otherwise fabulous instrument.

I sent it to my tech with a repad and looking into this issue in mind. It turns out the tube was loose, but correcting this did nothing for the problem at hand. We also went through a few different pads, and ended with cork as the least bad.

I know with violins if you push the acoustic envelope too far you end up with progressively worse wolf tones. I wonder if Bb is the trade off note for clarinets?
 
I'm wondering this myself.
This clarinet plays circles around everything else I've tried and I shopped for 2 years before deciding on this Signature. It's everything I could ever want in a clarinet except for that stupid Bb.
 
Carl H. said:
I wonder if Bb is the trade off note for clarinets?
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Not sure it's the Bb. On my Marigaux, the mouthpiece (every one I own) starts humming at over-the-staff A (but the pinch Bb is fine). On my metal Army horn, the long B is, uhm, odd. On the bass, it's the topmost clarion B.
Somehow it's an inverse Vandoren principle - there's a weak note in every instrument...
 
Tammi said:
I'm wondering this myself.
This clarinet plays circles around everything else I've tried and I shopped for 2 years before deciding on this Signature. It's everything I could ever want in a clarinet except for that stupid Bb.
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Exactly!!

This is an AMAZING (others use that word after playing it too) instrument, except for that note. I struggled through with it for years till I did Appalachian Spring and couldn't stand it with all those solo Bb's. Side fingerings only work well in some situations and resonance fingerings don't even come close.
 
tictactux said:
Not sure it's the Bb. On my Marigaux, the mouthpiece (every one I own) starts humming at over-the-staff A (but the pinch Bb is fine). On my metal Army horn, the long B is, uhm, odd. On the bass, it's the topmost clarion B.
Somehow it's an inverse Vandoren principle - there's a weak note in every instrument...
Click to expand...

This horn is also a Marigaux. I'm using an SML 5* as my main for now. It's almost as good and not as bad.
 
Carl H. said:
Exactly!!

This is an AMAZING (others use that word after playing it too) instrument, except for that note. I struggled through with it for years till I did Appalachian Spring and couldn't stand it with all those solo Bb's. Side fingerings only work well in some situations and resonance fingerings don't even come close.
Click to expand...


I like using side Bb, but I know what you're saying about resonance fingerings.
My poor old brain and fingers just don't work that fast anymore. I see it, I think it, It's gone.
 
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tictactux said:
RS? King? SML?
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It's about 45 years old, just Marigaux. My Father bought it new, used it very little, I grabbed it in college and still use it occasionally. Less often since I picked up the five star SML.
 
Well, it makes me wonder if an actual tone hole and a bit of metal could be fabricated to make an "alternate" throat Bb that has a simular enough fingering -- without ruining the horn in the process, that is.
 
I think Mazzeo was attempting to do this. It didn't seem to catch on. I picked one of them up cheap from fleabay. It was a POS and had been retrofitted with standard keys, so I have no idea how successful he was. I think Steve knows a thing or two about them. Maybe he will chime in soon.
 
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There are many variations of clarinets out there that had alternate fingersing, most of which were to improve the throat tones of the clarinet

There are a few examples here: such as McInture, Stubbins, Mazzeo, etc
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clAltKeywork.htm

The throat tones on the clarinet have always been a compromise but the manufacturers have always experimented with the location and size of the thumb register

I always take out the register vent during an overhaul and also reinsert and seal it (no air leaking around it). taking the register vent out is a common occurrence. Modifying how deep it goes is an easy experiment. modifying the size requires more extensive knowledge of what works and doesnt for a particular clarinet. The register vent also can vary greatly between makes and models.

the throat keys have to be a certain height to maintain intonation, there isn't much room to provide more venting and one usually has to use cork pads, properly shaped to improve that venting to minimize that stuffiness.

unfortunately i have had a Signature in my hands in over a year so I can't remember its pecularities to reply specifically.
 
Like it or not, use of the register key on the clarinet as part of a Bb in the staff fingering is always going to involve compromise. The hole is slightly too far down for a perfect register key, and slightly too far up for a tone hole to sound that Bb on the upper joint.

One easy improvement to make (if everything else is set up normally) is to bevel the cork (never a pad) on the register key. This (and register key height adjustments) can often cure problems with the pinch Bb.

We bass clarinet players are used to the mechanism that opens two different holes, and that helps a bit. However, on my Selmer Model 33, I still get a better sounding Bb with A and the third trill key. For anything over an eighth note, you can manage this alternative with enough practice. It's not like night and day, but it's well over a 33% improvement on tone and resonance.

On the clarinet, you've got a higher expectation of maneuverability with most music, and I usually don't do the "side Bb" on passages faster than a quarter note. Your mileage may vary.

Rosario Mazzeo was one of the first through the gate with an alternative for this imperfect note on the clarinet, and as mentioned above most who encountered one of his horns gave up on his approach, which involved a modification to standard clarinet technique that most were not willing to make. As a result, the "system" never really sold that well.

On the less expensive Mazzeo horns (Bundy), the Mazzeo mechanism could be clutched in and out with a small dowel thing on the upper joint. I have attempted to purchase three different Bundy horns with the Mazzeo mechanism, and in each case there was no clutch piece - bummer!

The simple way to deal with this would be to put a second register key immediately next to the current article, and have it open the third trill key. This is similar to the double and triple register key systems on oboes, and to the old (manual) double register keys on bass clarinets and saxophones. I don't know if this has been through the patent mill, but I don't doubt that it has been postulated before.

Purists (such as they are these days) will say that there's no such need, that it's too complicated, and so forth. It's the same set of arguments that were used against the improvements to the original clarinet as pioneered by Ivan Mueller - if such arguments would always have prevailed, we'd still be stuck with the six key clarinet...
 
I used to have a wonderful clarinet that was a joy to play. Unfortunately I used it in an elevated pit in winter and it didn't come through the show too well. I came out of the show with a sunburn from the lights, and the clarinet now has a number of cracks. Repairable, but not on my budget.:cry:
 
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