Untitled Document
     
Advertisement Click to advertise with us!
     

Stuffy throat Bb

The thread said that this method can mess with the response in the upper register.

How bad?
 
Tammi,
i haven't experimented with this enough hopefully Randy willi nterject more.
but i think it affects the response of the upper Clarion from mid staff B to 2 lines above staff open C mostly. the size & how much it protrudes is the key.

i've been working on this on clarinet as i've experimented with the same type of scenario on saxes with the size of the body octave on saxes and the response from G/A and the over all horn response. It's very interesting. unfortunately i have not fiddled around with it enough on clarinet to understand all the dynamics.

it's been on my list .... read about it from Moennig i think in addition to the Brad Behn writeup.
 
First, let me say that I'm feeling REALLY good about myself that my previous advice wasn't only good, someone actually carried it out (Rosario Mazzeo). Thanks for the pick-me-up, folks!

Further info:
* http://www.usd.edu/smm/Mazzeoclarinets.html

(Additionally, I was thinking about the bass clarinet, when I made my suggestion -- and also the baritone saxophone, both of which generally have interesting octave venting.)

Second, I was thinking about the "hasty pad" thing in regard to both Groove's comment that it should be a needle spring and then Tammi's question whether she could use a pin/needle.

One would *assume* that the oscillation that Groove mentions is only really possible -- to an extent -- if you use something that, well, can oscillate. An actual needle would probably be too stiff. A pin probably won't.

Now, the extent I know of acoustic stuff is that if you throw a PLASTIC reed cap, cork from a wine/Champagne bottle or even a PLASTIC end cap into the bell of your sax, the air column gets broken up and can make the bell tones easier to play. (Groove, Steve and/or Ed can probably explain this better.) Sounds like the "hasty pad" is a simular principle. Please yell at me if I'm wrong or praise me if I'm right.

The point Tammi made about how she didn't have this problem on other clarinets could easily be due to the clarinets' differing bores: I bet that the other horns had decent throat Bbs, but had other things you didn't like.
 
The main reason I got the Signature was that I thought that I was going to be able to finally get to go to college and needed a Pro horn.

I really like all of my clarinets. They feel and sound good. Except for maybe a tempermental articulated G# on my Bb full boehm.
 
Hi Tammi

I just tried the Selmer Signature a few days ago. First maybe I should mention that the throat Bb on my clarinet (not a Selmer Signature) is especially good compared with just about any clarinet I've played. Actually I almost never use the side Bb for anything but a few unusual trill I sometimes use. With that for comparison, I thought the throat Bb of the Signature is a little stuffy. Enough to notice a small problem. But, I didn't think it was especially bad, and I've tried some professional models, just as expensive, with far worse throat Bb.

As you know by now the register vent is a compromise, and for the Signature model they probably went for something that possibly creates this problem. It could be a lot of things like size (diameter), length, location, etc.

It's possible that to achieve whatever it is Selmer is trying to achieve with the Signature model, it is just impossible to have a better Bb. Of course it's not impossible that it's a small design flaw they missed. Some of the biggest companies missed details (or chose, IMO, not the best compromise) on some very expensive models.

And a lazy tech will tell you 'It's just the nature of the Beast'.
I don't really agree with that..... More specifically, unless you find someone with exactly the experience of dealing with something like this, maybe it's better they don't try to fix it, and accidently making it worse.

I had a very specific problem with a very respected model of bass clarinet (you can read about in the bass clarinet sub-forum). If I had to pay someone for everything I did, it would probably cost a fortune. I invested so much time but that's because it was my instrument and I wanted to solve the problem. I don't think it is fair to ask a repairer to invest that much for a customer's instrument.

Unless.... are you willing to pay for it? Especially if there might not even be a solution. In the case of my bass clarinet (former) problem, I don't think there is anyone else who checked it so thoroughly. It actually took getting in touch with two bass clarinet specialists who consult Buffet to find out just the beginning of what lead me to my experiments. This might be the same for the problem you have too.

So it's not necessay that there is a solution to your problem, but it also depends on how determined are you to finiding a solution and what you are willing to invest.

Nitai
 
Although unlikely with a new clarinet, it is always possible that some sort of crud could have found its way into the register tube.

No matter how well a horn is cleaned out, there are areas where moisture will be present in some amounts. And, just like your belly button (where sweat and cloth fibers can both accumulate unmolested), once it's there it stays there until removed. The same holds true for the two vents on the bass clarinet, particularly the one on the body of the horn that opens for the break and the lower notes in the clarinet register.

In the old cases with the plush velvet cloth interior, just normal wear and tear on same when putting the horn in and taking it out of the case creates small particles of lint, and one of the first places that lint can accumulate is in the moist, unswabbed interior of the register tubes.

Whenever my throat Bb starts to get "airy" and weak, the first thing that I do is to pull the register key and then run a damp pipe cleaner (the wire and fiber kind) through the tube. Presto! Instant correction of the "airiness".

And, even on the best horns, the side key and A key remains a far better sounding note. Just why a second key to open the side key has not been installed to correct the weak Bb has always been a mystery to me. Mazzeo's horns were too revolutionary to surmount tradition, but providing a parallel to the register key touch piece that opens the side key would be an obvious (and minimal change) to established technique.
 
When I comes to my personal clarinets I know exactly what I'm talking about.
There IS a problem with the throat Bb on the Signature.
However I'm not in a position to put a lot of time or money into experimenting with the register vent. It's something I've come to accept, and know how to work around it.

As for getting 'lint' in my vent.... My case is lined in suede and I use a chamois swab. Both are lint free. I also remove the register key about every other month and clean it with a non-wire pipe cleaner.

I'm very particular about how I care for my instruments. I have a 30+ year old Buffet that has gone to the tech every 2 years, and has never needed anything more than pads. It's even still wearing it's original tenon corks.
 
Tammi, I wrote before that I will report back after I try the Selmers and specifically the Signature so I just wanted to also add that, as I wrote, I did think the throat Bb is a little stuffier than at least some other models. Yes, it is possible to live with it. However you asked about possible improvements or solutions and I suggested some. I don't understand why you are being so defensive almost like someone attacked you ("There IS a problem...") when I agree about the note having a problem (to some degree) and offer suggestions. I especially rememberred to check that and spend some time for that in Musikmesse for this. I thought that is what you were looking for and the reason you started the thread, but you dismiss it as if it is rude of me to even offer help.....

Nitai
 
Nitai, your tone tends to come of as condescending at times. It wasn't the message which got her, it was the delivery.

I read it the same as Tammi did.
 
It didn't it sound this way to me, so if that happened it's only because I'm writing in a second language. I'm used to some people speaking and writing in a second language (my first language) and it can be very strange sometimes. I only tried to offer suggestions for help with the problem.

Nitai
 
Interesting thread.
This modification is news to me, but I don't think it would help me much.

The throat Bb on my Q series Centered Tone isn't significantly hissy but it does tend to be flat, especially if I don't keep the vent clean! Introducing a pin in it would probably make it flatter.
I'm curious to see if it works out for you Tammi.
 
Nitai, I apologise for coming across as if I didn't appreciate your efforts to offer a remedy to the situation.

When I said "There IS a problem with the register vent", it was meant as an "AH HA!., My findings were confirmed!"

Even if there is a fix, I'm not financially able to persue the issue right now.

Again I apologise. In the future, I'll try not to post anything that will cause any misunderstandings.
 
Sorry for jumping in the thread so late. I have been in Kentucky attending the NAPBIRT Convention for a few days.

My experience and understanding is that both the pin in the register key cork and putting a flat spring "splitter" in the register tube are solutions for "grunting" in the high register. They do nothing to clear up a fuzzy or stuffy Bb.

The solution that works the best for me is to taper or bevel the sides of the cork in the register key. The regular Bb fingering will never sound as clear as the side key fingering, but beveling the pad will help get it as close as possible. The technique I use is:

-Remove the key from the clarinet and remove the old pad and clean the key cup.

-Insert a 9mm cork pad in the key and reinstall the key. Smooth faced Yamaha trumpet water key corks work perfectly and are much less expensive than cork pads.

-Press the key to make an impression in the pad, then remove the key.

-Place the pad in a holding device* and spin using a bench motor or an electric drill in a vice.

-Create a sharp bevel in the pad according to the impression in the cork by sanding the spinning cork with an emery board.

-Add heat glue to the back of the cork pad and install in the key cup.

-Replace the key and float the pad into place using an electric key cup heater**to heat the key without burning the cork.

* I made mine using a short piece of brass tubing the same diameter as the cork pad with a wooden dowel sanded to fit snugly inside the tubing. The dowel is marked to allow the pad to sit the correct distance into the tube and then is used to push the cork out when finished.

**An old Weller soldering gun with the tip cut off leaving two prongs on the end makes an excellent electric key cup heating tool. Be careful to pull the trigger AFTER the prongs touch the metal and to release the trigger before removing the prongs or arching will occur that makes a mark on the key.

John
 
It can't be beveled any more than it already is.
I thought I was done a long time ago.
 
OK Tammi it was a misunderstanding. This is too likely to happen on an internet forum.

Re John's method (hi John! :)) I'm not crazy about the idea of installing the pad, creating the impression, and then reinstalling the same pad. Unless the impression is exactly in the center, which is unlikely. If I want to bevel the cork pad, I just install it, then remove the key, and use the micromotor to bevel it while it is installed. Not that John's method can't be done, but this is probably easier and faster, without any risk of changing the position of the impression with the register tube.

By the way, I tried to notice the throat Bbs on many different companies and models too. I thought Selmers weren't great, but the "problem" is not very bad IMO. The Signature was probably just a tiny bit worse than the other models, but still not what I would consider a serious problem, and definitely easy to live with if you like that clarinet (I thought it was a great clarinet, but I didn't especially like it personally). If I was playing the Signature model, I would probably not bother with register tube experiments too (eventhough I did exactly that on one of my clarients where a problem did annoy me enough).

I guess I'm lucky that on my clarinet the throat Bb is nearly as good as the side Bb. Actually I don't really use the side Bb as a Bb (mostly I use it for some unusual trill fingerings). On the other end.... I've tried a professional model A clarinet from one company with such a terrible throat Bb, that for that reason alone I wouldn't consider buying (was interesting that the Bb model didn't have that problem).
 
Back
Top Bottom