Why Yamaha for Students?

[Al Stevens]

I had a co-worker come up to me and say he wanted to "pick up" the sax. Yes, I gave him my normal beginner speech (he's a vocalist/guitarist/bassist in a local band) and talked with him about what he's trying to do.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have that much to spend: appx. $300 for an alto or $500 for a tenor. I'd prefer to get the guy Yamaha or Vito-branded Yamaha horns.

He's going to take care of the horn(s). I know that much .

Suggest that he rent for now and wait. Given the stenciled Taiwanese saxes being marketed under various names, we might see a flood of them hitting the used market before long. Some of them are very good instruments, and new prices are relatively low. We might see Barones, TK Melodies, etc. on ebay in the $300 price range before long.

 

[Steve]

I vote for the Vito-yamaha horns.

True they dont have the nice ergos of the chinese/tawiwanese copies and non-copies but they have a known durability and sound pretty nice.

 

[tictactux]

I vote for the Vito-yamaha horns.

True they dont have the nice ergos of the chinese/tawiwanese copies and non-copies but they have a known durability and sound pretty nice.

+1 for Japanese Vitos or Yamahas. Very service friendly, quintessential saxes.

(Bought a tenor for $170 for a friend earlier this year)

 

[pete]

That's why I'd like to get him a Yamaha or a Vito-Yamaha, TTT and Steve .

 

[tictactux]

That's why I'd like to get him a Yamaha or a Vito-Yamaha, TTT and Steve .

An excellent choice, Sir.

(We have Positive Reinforcement Week, did you forget?)

 

[pete]

I positively forgot.

 

[SOTSDO]

Yamaha, no ifs, ands or buts. Starting someone on something else is usually asking for trouble somewhere down the line.

 

[Al Stevens]

Yamaha, no ifs, ands or buts. Starting someone on something else is usually asking for trouble somewhere down the line.

What kind of trouble?

 

[pete]

What kind of trouble?

* Intonation
* Maintenance
* Keywork

Mmm. That about covers it .

The only negative I've ever been able to determine about the Yamaha student horns is that they're not as robust as the Bundy II -- in other words, run over a Bundy with a steamroller and it still plays and is relatively in tune. Do the same to your Yamaha student horn and it's broken.

 

[Al Stevens]

* Intonation
* Maintenance
* Keywork

Mmm. That about covers it .

So anyone starting out on anything other than a Yamaha will have those troubles? Why do you believe that?

 

[Al Stevens]

So anyone starting out on anything other than a Yamaha will have those troubles? Why do you believe that?

Come to think of it, the only sax I ever had serious intonation problems with was a YTS 82ZU. I had service problems with it, too.

 

[pete]

So anyone starting out on anything other than a Yamaha will have those troubles? Why do you believe that?

Hey. Start your OWN thread .

* Maintenance: you break something on a YAS-23, chances are that Joe Music Shop down the corner has the part, in stock. Heck, he probably has 15 of that part. And technicians seem to like working on the YAS-23.

* Intonation: Yamahas are fairly decent and consistent, intonation-wise. Except for the 62's that had bad necks. They're also modern enough so I can slap a wide variety of mouthpieces on it and play it in tune.

* Keywork: If you step up a little higher than the YAS-23, the keywork is as modern as you're going to get on any horn, pro models included. Additionally, even the YAS-23 has decent, rugged keywork that's relatively easy to use (e.g. my LH pinky has been broken twice. It's difficult/hurts to play the G# cluster on most saxophones with a non-Selmer G# cluster. It feels fine on the YAS-23). Plus, you don't have to worry about G# trill keys, fork Eb fingerings, etc.

FWIW, your issues with the 82Z may have been the other horns you've played. I've been told time and time again that if you loosen up and not try to overcompensate for the intonation problems of your older horns, you'll find that it's really easy to play a newer horn in tune without struggling. Now, I don't know if that was your issue, but I have heard of it.

Finally, what other choices are there for studentia? I could say that I wanted to get a Keilwerth New King or something and that'd be decent, but that'd also be somewhat difficult to find -- and it shoots down at least two of the features I mention above. And is probably more expensive than what I'm looking for. Older Yani? Maybe, but too old = poor instrument, based on my playing of older Yanis.

 

[Al Stevens]

Hey. Start your OWN thread .

I do every now and then. Everyone is welcome.

* Maintenance: you break something on a YAS-23, chances are that Joe Music Shop down the corner has the part, in stock. Heck, he probably has 15 of that part. And technicians seem to like working on the YAS-23.

My local tech, in a very small shop, has never had a problem servicing any of my horns. I've owned Selmers, Conns, Bueschers, a Vito, a King, a Jupiter, two Barones, and the only Yamaha saxophone I will ever own, ever. I don't own it any more.

* Intonation: Yamahas are fairly decent and consistent, intonation-wise. Except for the 62's that had bad necks. They're also modern enough so I can slap a wide variety of mouthpieces on it and play it in tune.

Not a problem on any of the horns I own and have owned including the Taiwanese horns. Except for that Yamaha. So the argument that if you don't get a Yamaha, you'll have intonation problems is just not convincing.

* Keywork: If you step up a little higher than the YAS-23, the keywork is as modern as you're going to get on any horn, pro models included. Additionally, even the YAS-23 has decent, rugged keywork that's relatively easy to use (e.g. my LH pinky has been broken twice. It's difficult/hurts to play the G# cluster on most saxophones with a non-Selmer G# cluster. It feels fine on the YAS-23). Plus, you don't have to worry about G# trill keys, fork Eb fingerings, etc.

Most contemporary horns have Selmer-like keywork. And, whenever someone advises someone not to buy a 10M because of keywork, someone else always says, "You'll get used to it." Which, apparently, a lot of players did for years. But every contemporary horn I've picked up in the past few years feels mostly like my Mark VIs.

FWIW, your issues with the 82Z may have been the other horns you've played. I've been told time and time again that if you loosen up and not try to overcompensate for the intonation problems of your older horns, you'll find that it's really easy to play a newer horn in tune without struggling. Now, I don't know if that was your issue, but I have heard of it.

The issues were: (1) Everyone who played the horn, including teachers at the dealership, had intonation problems from D3 up. (2) Yamaha and the dealer were unwilling to correct the problem. (This was with the new neck that was supposed to address that problem.) It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.

Finally, what other choices are there for studentia?

Students have many choices now. Many good horns suitable for students and pros and that blow away the big four price-wise.

It's true you usually can't go wrong with a YTS23, for example. But it's just not true that buying Yamaha is the only way you can't go wrong.

 

[pete]

I'd submit that there are a lot of bad choices for students.

There used to be two choices: Selmer USA (Bundy II) or Yamaha 23 -- as said, the former is if you're gonna beat on the horn, the latter is if you're gonna take care of it. Selmer now brands the LaVoix/LaVie and they're Chinese/Taiwanese horns of dubious quality (I base this only on the reviews I've read; I have no particular experience with them).

This isn't to say that there aren't bunches of horns out there that are marketed as "student model". It's to say that there aren't a lot of good quality student horns out there.

I'll split this discussion into a separate thread, in a bit. I think it warrants further discussion.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I would not lock into Yamaha saxophones of any level. I once owned what I considered to be the best 82Z alto (this one happened to be a lacquered model) I'd tried (and that was MANY). Yet, the Z I owned was mediocre at best when compared to other altos in my closet.

I played a Yamaha 62 silver soprano (when the 62 was top-o'-the-line) for a few years but my oldest daughter has it now. I've played better sopranos.

I have played a couple of 23 altos that were surprisingly good players but their tonal quality seemed a bit "hard" (I don't know how else to describe them). Maybe BRIGHT is a better descriptor. Both had the same tonal quality, too.

I bought my then 11-year old grandson a new Kessler alto a while back. It played better than a new Yamaha 62II that Kessler had for sale that day. My grandson, now 13, still likes the Kessler and it still plays fine.

I'm guessing that among all the brands out there, some will play fine while others - won't. If I were looking today for a new student-level alto, I'd go to Kessler's and opt for one of the Taiwanese-made saxophones he sells.

Would a 23 (new or used) work? Sure, but I'd personally be more selective. DAVE

 

[pete]

> My local tech, in a very small shop, has never had a problem servicing any of my horns. I've owned Selmers, Conns, Bueschers, a Vito, a King, a Jupiter, two Barones, and the only Yamaha saxophone I will ever own, ever.
This has not been my experience. With a simple repair -- ripped pad or damaged cork -- the local shops have been able to fix the problem without issue. Broken keys? Damaged keyguards/necks? Well, they can send away for the parts -- if the horn's new enough -- or modify something to fit, maybe. However, with something as common as the Yamaha 23, they probably have the part right there. That's what I'm referring to.

> Most contemporary horns have Selmer-like keywork. And, whenever someone advises someone not to buy a 10M because of keywork, someone else always says, "You'll get used to it." Which, apparently, a lot of players did for years. But every contemporary horn I've picked up in the past few years feels mostly like my Mark VIs.
The Yamaha 275 and newer horns do have Selmer-BA-like keywork. The 23 doesn't. What I'm referring to more is alternate keywork, especially the articulated G# and/or G# cluster layout. I'd really prefer students to play a Yamaha 32/34/475/52/575 because they do have the Selmer-style keywork, but these are much more expensive, even used.

"You'll get used to it" sounds an awful lot like "It builds character".

> It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.
I think there's a bit of a difference in two respects: first, I'm assuming your horn was under warranty and the horns I've been looking at are way off warranty -- if I had a problem with a used instrument, I just get it fixed on my dime; no approval from anyone needed -- and second, well, why'd you buy the horn if everyone that played it said that it was out of tune? I assume you playtested the heck out of it: those Yamaha Customs cost a lot of cash.

While I fully comprehend that there could be a lemon in the bunch, I haven't played a single Yamaha saxophone or clarinet that wasn't good -- and some of the custom pro horns were excellent. And many, many folks have had similar experiences. It's kinda like saying, "I had one Mark VI that was junk. That means all Mark VIs are junk." (Hey, even my comments about how I thought all Conns were junk was based on my having owned several vintage Conns and having played several more, all made from about 1914 to 1930. It took playing a 30M for me to change my opinion.)

> Students have many choices now. Many good horns suitable for students and pros and that blow away the big four price-wise.
Name one that has anywhere near the performance and reliability of the Yamaha 23.

There are really two parts to this: what's a better USED student alto for $300 US or under and what's a better NEW student alto for approximately $1759? In the latter case, I'd say, "That's way too darn much! I'll buy a used pro horn for that!" (especially when the YAS-475, a much better horn, is less than $100 more). In the former case, I can't think of anything other than a Bundy II or a YAS-23. As mentioned, you might be able to get an older Yani or Keilwerth -- on eBay and on a good day -- for that, but that's a bit doubtful.

 

[Al Stevens]

> It was a bad horn, not a player problem. A lemon. And Yamaha wouldn't fix it.
I think there's a bit of a difference in two respects: first, I'm assuming your horn was under warranty and the horns I've been looking at are way off warranty...and second, well, why'd you buy the horn if everyone that played it said that it was out of tune?

It's a long story that I told before elsewhere. But since you asked:

You got it backwards. I didn't buy a horn that everyone said sucked. Everyone said a horn I already bought sucked.

When I bought the Yamaha, about six years ago, I was relatively new to saxophone playing having not played one since high school. I did not have a tuner with me. Most of my playing at that time was not in the range that had the problem, and I just didn't realize there was a problem. My bad. I found the problem a couple months later as my playing progressed. (I'm an unusually fast learner when it comes to music.)

Figuring it might be pilot error, I asked other players, including my teacher, who teaches at the store where I bought the horn, to try it out. They all said the same thing. This horn plays out of tune.

Yes, it was still under warranty, and no, neither the store nor Yamaha would take it back or fix it. It was an unlacquered model, and they said they couldn't resell it. I said, why would you want to resell it? It's a POS. You can guess where it went from there.

That's not the end of the long story, but it's enough to make my point. Anyone interested in the complete saga can search other sites for my name and Yamaha and be further bored by my rant.

Thus my position that buying a Yamaha saxophone does not guarantee you're getting a good product. I've walked that walk.

My experience with other saxes is the basis for my opposition to the assertion here that buying anything other than Yamaha virtually guarantees problems.

(In January I gave my gold-plated Barone tenor to my daughter who said she wanted a saxophone. It's coming home today. She didn't have time to play it. I eagerly await its return. I've had it since Phil first started selling them and used it a lot. No problems so far.)

 

[tictactux]

I hear you, Al.

In a way, Yamaha is to musical instruments as what Toyota is to cars - you can be pretty sure that you get a decent piece of hardware for your money. Some are great, and some are just, well, dependable but decently do their job.

That doesn't mean to say that no one in Japan ever has a bad day at work, and every so rarely someone picks up an item with, uhm, compatibility issues. (did I mention I've been working in marketing in a former life?)

What I don't understand is that they didn't simply admitted their fault and simply replaced the instrument. <scratches head>

 

[Connical]

>
...

There are really two parts to this: what's a better USED student alto for $300 US or under and what's a better NEW student alto for approximately $1759? In the latter case, I'd say, "That's way too darn much! I'll buy a used pro horn for that!" (especially when the YAS-475, a much better horn, is less than $100 more). In the former case, I can't think of anything other than a Bundy II or a YAS-23. As mentioned, you might be able to get an older Yani or Keilwerth -- on eBay and on a good day -- for that, but that's a bit doubtful.

Point well made!

I think we also need to remind ourselves that almost everyone else out there who is looking to buy a sax for the first time, does not have the extensive experience with horns that many of us already have. Offering Yamaha as the best option is a safe play. Yamaha's are readily available, cheap, and consistent, and enjoy a popular resale market. While they may not bring thousands, they still sell easily and can be turned back into cash quickly. I have a Jupiter in really nice condition, but the beater Yamaha I own, is far easier to resale. While companies like Barone, Kessler, and Antigua offer some strong values today, I doubt their resale and popularity will match Yamaha down the road. Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on, these other companies lack the history to determine such a statement. They may be great values tomorrow, but it's a gamble, Yamaha is not a gamble.

 

[Al Stevens]

What I don't understand is that they didn't simply admitted their fault and simply replaced the instrument. <scratches head>

They paid an admittedly small price for that. I won't buy anything there as a result, and I won't buy a Yamaha anything new from anyone.

The larger price is in PR. I have no qualms about telling folks about it. Joe Girard's Rule of 250, and all that.

Oh, well, buy American, that's my motto. Yeah, right.

My Barone tenor got home a while ago. I just popped it in, and realized I'd forgotten how much I like it. One thing I like is the G3 key. I've never been able to hit G3 on any other tenor. Now I can play Yesterdays in the upper register again.