Why Yamaha for Students?

[Al Stevens]

While companies like Barone, Kessler, and Antigua offer some strong values today, I doubt their resale and popularity will match Yamaha down the road.

That was one of my original points. Wait a short while and those closet Barones, Antiguas, Jupiters, etc. will be on the used market for peanuts. Who cares whether a bargain is popular if it's playable?

Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on

What else would you expect them to say?

... these other companies lack the history to determine such a statement. They may be great values tomorrow, but it's a gamble,

I don't see the gamble. So what if Barone stops selling saxes for whatever reason some day? Will the horns all go poof and self-destruct on that day?

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.

Think about it. Bueschers, Conns, Kings, Martins, etc. They're still playing.

Yamaha is not a gamble.

Should I repeat the story about my experience with Yamaha's service? I gambled and lost, which is why I whimper and whine about it. I know. I need to get over it. Maybe there's a 12-step program...

 

[SOTSDO]

Barone's horns are made here in the US of A? When did that bit of good fortune start happening? I thought all American instrument "manufacturing" (as opposed to "hand crafted") had moved off shore long, long ago.

 

[clarnibass]

I am not sure about the newer Yamaha 275, because I haven't had the chance to check one thoroughly, but I've checked a lot of 23s. The strange thing is, the mechanical problems of the 23 are almsot never mentioned. Maybe because players are not usually aware of them. Here is my opinions on this.

For many years, pretty much since it came out (the 21 model at first) the Yamaha student model was basically by far the best student instrument. It had/has very tough and strong metal (some of the hardest saxophones for dent repair), relatively simply and great mechanical design, excellent ergnomic keys, good tone, and usualy excellent intonation.

IMO, for a long time no student model was that good, not even close. For example a known student model, the Bundy II, is so much worse it's almost a ridiculous comparison. The Bundy II has a bad mechanical design, which makes working on it much arder (especially the design of the key arms), is less ergnonomic, and IMO the tone is more aggressive, less consistent and not as good intonation.

But the Yamaha 23 still has mechanical problems that are important to mention. These are un-level tone holes and stack rod screws that are loose in their posts. What this means is, that the saxophone will play great for a while, maybe even a long time, but when eventually it is time to have a major repair, those issues make it more expensive to fix than if it didn't have those issues. Since Yamaha uses relaitvely hard pads, those issues could become significant sooner than later. But even with those issues, there was for a very long time nothing as good.

Then Taiwanese and Chinese started improving, mostly in the last few years. My country is sometimes a little late to get the newest things, but when I recently was in Musikmesse and tried so many Chinese and Taiwanese saxophones, I almost couldn't beleive it. The quality at that price was something you just couldn't find before. The good Taiwanese models and some of the better Chinese models didn't have those issues the Yamaha 23 has, and especailly the Chinese, cost significantly less. In fact, the Taiwanese had some of the most accurate build keys I've seen from any company. They impressed me a lot so I'm now even considering selling them locally. I made a sample order to check them thoroughly and found the build quality is really some of the best I've seen. The tone and intonation are also excellent.

I wouldn't be confortable selling a Yamaha 23 without mentioning the problematic issues to the buyer. If I fixed them before selling, I would probably not be able to sell it at a price that is competitive. Unfortunately in every case that I've one of these that was supposedly repadded, those issues weren't completely fixed. I think think it's a good saxophone, but with is available now it's hard to recommend it anymore. Even used, it's hard to believe a 23 which had all those mechanical problems fixed could sell at a very competitive price compared with some decent Chinese instruments. The Chinese and Taiwanese models made by Conn-Selmer that Pete mentioned are sometimes ok too but are overpriced IMO, probably because they have those big names on them.

 

[jbtsax]

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.

Sorry to disagree Al, but "pretty much the same parts" doesn't address the issue. Most of the "off the shelf" Taiwanese saxes that are stenciled with Barone, etc. do not have parts available. I am a full time repair tech, and I do not know of any source for parts for these instruments, nor do I know which factory in Taiwan they come from. The exceptions are the brand specific companies whose instruments are made in Taiwan such as Antigua Winds, Mauriat, Jupiter, Cannonball etc. who do go to the time and expense of stocking parts for every model they sell. Sure any good tech can fabricate a part for anything. To do it well and make it match the rest of the sax cosmetically can take 2 hours or more of shop time and the accompanying cost.

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students". Just because a pro adult player may never need a key or part replaced on his saxophone does not mean that is true for players of all ages. My experience in the shop has been that parts are essential to good, fast repairs at a reasonable cost.

Barone's horns are made here in the US of A? When did that bit of good fortune start happening? I thought all American instrument "manufacturing" (as opposed to "hand crafted") had moved off shore long, long ago.

I think Al was being sarcastic. Barone's saxes are made in Taiwan in an undisclosed location (even to him according to some of his posts on SOTW).

John

 

[Al Stevens]

Barone's horns are made here in the US of A? When did that bit of good fortune start happening? I thought all American instrument "manufacturing" (as opposed to "hand crafted") had moved off shore long, long ago.

Was there something about "Yeah, right" that wasn't clear?

 

[Al Stevens]

Sorry to disagree Al, but "pretty much the same parts" doesn't address the issue. Most of the "off the shelf" Taiwanese saxes that are stenciled with Barone, etc. do not have parts available. I am a full time repair tech, and I do not know of any source for parts for these instruments...

That does not mean that others do not know the sources, however, or how to interchange parts. As demand builds--and it will (economics 101)--this issue becomes a non-issue.

Also, when a good saxophone is cheaper than a repad job, the saxophone becomes a disposable commodity. Don't fix it. Replace it.

I realize that the Taiwanese instrument stencils who pay to establish high advertising profiles and have higher prices to cover their overheads don't want any of this to be true, but, oh, well...

The influx of affordable Asian saxophones is like a drum solo. You can tell it's coming, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students".

Not my title even though the thread is attributed to me.

 

[Connical]

That was one of my original points. Wait a short while and those closet Barones, Antiguas, Jupiters, etc. will be on the used market for peanuts. Who cares whether a bargain is popular if it's playable?

You are 100% right, great deals will be had someday. But not so great for those who already have them and want to recoup some cash.

I don't see the gamble. So what if Barone stops selling saxes for whatever reason some day? Will the horns all go poof and self-destruct on that day?

It's only a gamble for the newbie who lacks the necessary contacts
to find a reputable servicer and parts supplier. Anyone can find a
dealer that can service and supply parts for Yamaha.

Despite what you read here, parts and service will not be a problem. They all use pretty much the same parts. Those factories won't go away. And if a demand to service them builds, that demand will be met. The tech I use can fix anything you bring in the door. Anything that hasn't been flattened by a truck, that is.

Think about it. Bueschers, Conns, Kings, Martins, etc. They're still playing.

You are mistaken in comparing companies like the above. These were the best of yesteryear. The Taiwan companies of today, hardly measure up to those industry greats. A better comparison would be the little guys from yesteryear that have since disappeared. Companies like Pedler and Whitehall who sold stencil horns for the most part. Since they both used so many different sources, it's often very difficult or impossible to determine where they originated from.
This is identical to what is happening with the countless Taiwan and Chinese factories that are producing dozens of competing horns today. Can you tell me the factory or manufacturer where they all originated ? Years down the road, the main source of parts will be as it is today for the Whitehalls and Pedlers. That is of course, other same model Whitehall and Pedler horns, or Barone, Antigua ...if you can find one.

Should I repeat the story about my experience with Yamaha's service? I gambled and lost, which is why I whimper and whine about it. I know. I need to get over it. Maybe there's a 12-step program...

I feel your pain. Nothing hits home more than a bad experience with a lemon. Especially when it's one of your first new horns.
As with all mass produced products, there will be some lemons.
Yamaha is lnown for making less lemons per 1000, but they still do make some.
I like to think of this thread as a 12 step program. " My name is Stephen, and I owned a lemon. (Conn 10m) "

 

[Al Stevens]

You are mistaken in comparing companies like the above.

Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.

Taiwanese horns are plentiful even today. Many of the parts are interchangeable. It doesn't matter where they were made. Who cares? As the horns age and need service, that demand creates a market for parts. Not a problem. The Taiwanese are pretty good at making copies of things and exploiting the marketplace.

 

[Al Stevens]

You are 100% right, great deals will be had someday. But not so great for those who already have them and want to recoup some cash.

Nothing new there. My car isn't worth near what I paid for it. Have you tried to sell a house lately? A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.

 

[Connical]

Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.

Taiwanese horns are plentiful even today. Many of the parts are interchangeable. It doesn't matter where they were made. Who cares? As the horns age and need service, that demand creates a market for parts. Not a problem. The Taiwanese are pretty good at making copies of things and exploiting the marketplace.

A valid point. There will be plenty of good sources down the road, but not for everything. I'm sure Barone and Kessler products will be available. But imagine this scenario. What if Phil died tomorrow ? (Heaven forbid) How long will it take before some confusion sets in. Today if I have a question, I pick up the phone and call Phil. Question answered. What about tomorrow ? This is when a new tech, seeking answers will get confused. Where do I go ? Who made this ? There will be techs who know these answers tomorrow. But like today. If you walk into 100 repair shops and ask them questions about that Truetone, not every one will have the knowledge and experience to help you out. This is why a Truetone would be a poor choice for a student (among many), since that student would have to know a good tech with the necessary experience to help them out. Since we are talking about student horns, the last thing a clueless student needs, is a tough time finding a knowlegable servicer.

Yamaha is well over 100 years old, and started out as a music instrument maker. I have in my home countless Yamaha electronic pieces, as well as 2 motorcycles. They will be here tomorrow. They are a Japanese institution, maybe THE Japanese institution.

Keilwerth and Yanagisawa were once tiny companies that have prospered and are now well respected companies.
I'm sure at least a couple of these new companies will survive as well. But who is to say who ?

Students quit playing for a variety of reasons. Pointing towards a Yamaha takes many of the reasons away .
This is not to be overlooked . So many students quit due to a lack of progress. Progress that can be
hindered by a horn in need of repair. Taiwan horns as well as Chinese horns can be serviced too, but not by everyone.

I may very well buy a Barone horn in the near future. My desire has been kindled by the many positive reviews from people such as yourself. But I still wouldn't advise my neighbor to buy one for their student. It's far safer to put them on a stable and well occupied road.

 

[Connical]

Nothing new there. My car isn't worth near what I paid for it. Have you tried to sell a house lately? A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.

Touche' , well said !

Well I've spent enough time wagging my tongue or is it mouse ? I'm off to work on my
1979 Yamaha XS Eleven. Good thing I have a '78 parts bike to rob some parts from ! =)

 

[clarnibass]

I think the issue of spare parts depends on area maybe. My experience is very different. I stock pads to fit all saxophones, I have many pivot screws for many models. I have all springs, etc. etc. But other than that, I have some other parts (other types of screws, etc.) but not really that much. Rod screws I make. Other occasional parts, I would make.

It is rare for me to actually need a key, a key guard, a post, or anyting like that. In fact it's extremely rare. That is from repairing instruments for players of all levels. There are so many different brands so to stock so many parts would actually be a lot more expensive, both to me and for customers, than not stocking them. I don't remember a case where not having a spare part was a problem. In the rare situation when a part is missing and making it would be too expensive, I would order it.

For parts for the more "private" Taiwanese or Chinese instruments like Barone, I think you could probably contact Barone and he can get parts. But sometimes parts from other Taiwanese/Chinese models would fit and worth checking.

 

[pete]

Remember the title of this thread is "Why Yamaha for Students".

Not my title even though the thread is attributed to me.

I do have a note on the original post that I split this from my thread which was just a "Wanted to Buy" ad. Sorry for any cofnusion.

Not a comparison, but to make a point. Horns manufactured in days of yore by now-defunct companies are still being played and maintained today. I had a 1919 Buescher tenor unplayable with original everything including cloth pads. The overhaul cost what any overhaul costs and did not take a long time. Parts are available. A ninety-year-old saxophone made by a company that went away over forty years ago plays like new today.

And I had a 1919-ish Wurlitzer alto (Conn stencil) and it was ... average. I also have played 1940's era Conn Cavaliers and a host of Pan Americans. They ranged in quality from "junk" to "below average". The point I'm making is "old" doesn't necessarily equal "great". And, if you're comparing professional models to student models, that can be an apples to oranges comparison. (Although I do think the YAS-23 would blow away a lot of professional models from the 1920's.)

A saxophone as an investment? Those were the good ol' days.

I don't think those days ever existed.

A Selmer Mark VI alto in 1957 cost $455, according to the catalog I have. That's a little under $3500 in today's money. And that's a bit higher than the average price that Mark VI altos sell at.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that new prices don't go up. I bought my YBS-52 in 1989 for $1800. The YBS-52 is now a shade under $4600 -- calculating only inflation rate says it should only be about $3100 (which is around what a used one sells for, according to a brief eBay search). Well, I did get it on sale.

And those are for Selmer and Yamaha: those are big brand names. A Conn New Wonder cost $190 in 1922 for a full Artist's Special gold plate finish (the Virtuoso Deluxe was special order). That's about $2300 in today's money. They haven't sold for that in a long while.

The point saxophones, at best, retain their value. The exceptions are only the extremely rare models, like contrabasses and Buescher's tipped bell horns.

Of course, this is another topic and has no real bearing on student horns: student horns rarely retain their value.

Barone.

Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place -- and Barone mentions on his website in big type that the horn is Taiwanese.

I think one model of Barone wasn't P. Mauriat-esque, but some other manufacturer. I don't specifically remember. I remember I commented that the Barone in comparison to the P. Mauriat, at least in the pictures I saw, wasn't as well formed or assembled. (Gandalfe posted in that thread, too, so he might remember the linky.)

In any event, the Barone saxophones are cheaper than the Yamaha 23 and are priced a little cheaper (on average) than the P. Mauriat student/intermediate horns. (I can also say that there's a closed eBay ad for a student model P. Mauriat, 8 months old -- and looked it -- for $950. That's about $600 less than new).

Parts.

Again, my point wasn't necessarily that you could order parts or hunt down the dealer for a different horn, it's "immediate availability". Like, "I've got a concert tonight and the octave key broke". With a YAS-23, you probably have the part lying around. You don't have to wait 6 weeks to order.

There will be plenty of good sources down the road, but not for everything. I'm sure Barone and Kessler products will be available. But imagine this scenario. What if Phil died tomorrow ? (Heaven forbid) How long will it take before some confusion sets in. Today if I have a question, I pick up the phone and call Phil. Question answered. What about tomorrow ? This is when a new tech, seeking answers will get confused. Where do I go ? Who made this ? There will be techs who know these answers tomorrow. But like today. If you walk into 100 repair shops and ask them questions about that Truetone, not every one will have the knowledge and experience to help you out. This is why a Truetone would be a poor choice for a student (among many), since that student would have to know a good tech with the necessary experience to help them out. Since we are talking about student horns, the last thing a clueless student needs, is a tough time finding a knowlegable servicer.

+1. Excellent post.

Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on

What else would you expect them to say?

You misinterpreted this, Al. How about, "Yamaha's consistent quality throughout their various product lines makes me believe that their products will always be in demand"?

========

[admin_hat=ON]
Everyone, please tone down the sarcasm -- or at least tag your posts "[ban_me_now]" ... I mean "[sarcasm]". a) People who don't speak English as a native language aren't going to understand your sarcasm and b) Some of the posts here aren't sarcastic and aren't meant to be.

Additionally, try to stay somewhat on topic. Remember, this thread is about STUDENT horns. It's great that, say, a Reference 36 is going to retain a lot of value 50 years from now, but how does that compare with a LaVie?

Personally, I don't care about getting whatever horn: I'm not buying one. A beginner might want to look here for some good advice, though. Keep that in mind.

Thanks!
[/admin]

 

[Al Stevens]

The point I'm making is "old" doesn't necessarily equal "great". And, if you're comparing professional models to student models, that can be an apples to oranges comparison. (Although I do think the YAS-23 would blow away a lot of professional models from the 1920's.)

We may be approaching a point where student models and pro models are virtually indistinguishable from a player's perspective. Perhaps build quality will become the defining line.

I don't think those days ever existed.

Quinn the Eskimo might disagree.

...
Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place...

There was a lot of confusion and a lot of hyperbole over that. My PB tenor has keywork identical to one of the PM professional models. But I don't think one can form any solid conclusions just based on that, other than if I ever need parts...

Also, mine was among the first, and apparently Phil had to go elsewhere when PM put pressure on the factory.

Then Phil split with his partner who is selling Chinese horns with Phil's name on them while Phil is selling Taiwanese horns with Phil's name on them. The provenance of Barone horns is now somewhat obscure.

So now there's a "classic" model of a product that's only a couple of years old. This kind of chaos will probably influence the used market.

You misinterpreted this, Al. How about, "Yamaha's consistent quality throughout their various product lines makes me believe that their products will always be in demand"?

Please reread what I responded to. I interpreted it literally as, "Yamaha said to the poster what the poster said Yamaha said," which is what anyone would expect Yamaha to say, which is what I said. Got that? :-D It wasn't what the poster said; it was what he said Yamaha told him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Connical]

Please reread what I responded to. I interpreted it literally as, "Yamaha said to the poster what the poster said Yamaha said," which is what anyone would expect Yamaha to say, which is what I said. Got that? :-D It wasn't what the poster said; it was what he said Yamaha told him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

My error ! I did mean it as a personal opinion, and not as hyperbole from Yamaha. No need to apologize for my gaff !

 

[Al Stevens]

My error ! I did mean it as a personal opinion, and not as hyperbole from Yamaha. No need to apologize for my gaff !

Aha! It's a typo. You said:

"Yamaha consistentcy assures me that they will still be in demand later on"

I read it as:

"Yamaha consistently assures me..."

But you meant:

Yamaha's consistency assures me..."

More my fault than yours. Sorry. Pete was right.

 

[Steve]

I think one model of Barone wasn't P. Mauriat-esque, but some other manufacturer. I don't specifically remember. I remember I commented that the Barone in comparison to the P. Mauriat, at least in the pictures I saw, wasn't as well formed or assembled. (Gandalfe posted in that thread, too, so he might remember the linky.)

In any event, the Barone saxophones are cheaper than the Yamaha 23 and are priced a little cheaper (on average) than the P. Mauriat student/intermediate horns. (I can also say that there's a closed eBay ad for a student model P. Mauriat, 8 months old -- and looked it -- for $950. That's about $600 less than new).

it was a Cannonball copy (ok jbt.. it had all the same tonehole and post and keywork similarities as a CB .. maybe a rogue CB factory .. lol ). I didn't mention what i thought it was on that SOTW thread but I was the one that brought up the differences. Mostly through PMs but one original posting.

I was curious on the eBay price of Barones and PMs too. I think they are good horns.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Over my 50+ years of playing, I recall having to replace one lower keyguard on a curved Yanagisawa soprano when I carelessly bent it. It could have been straightened, too, but I chose to get a new one. It took MONTHS to get it.

The rest of my horns never needed parts, save for pads and corks/felts and springs - common items I suspect.

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details . . . DAVE

 

[pete]

Sorry. Pete was right.

Sounds like you're gonna get a title, soon, Al. "Pete was right!" is so much better than "Woodwind Member" .

 

[Connical]

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Over my 50+ years of playing, I recall having to replace one lower keyguard on a curved Yanagisawa soprano when I carelessly bent it. It could have been straightened, too, but I chose to get a new one. It took MONTHS to get it.

The rest of my horns never needed parts, save for pads and corks/felts and springs - common items I suspect.

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details . . . DAVE

I think that when a person spends their own hard earned money they do tend to take better care of their saxes. I know I do. But since the topic is discussing student saxes, most of which were supplied by mommy and daddy, a more casual attitude towards care is often adopted by students. 5 years of marching showed me that. Also take into account the numerous parents who purchased a rent to own. Often a horn that had been around the block many times. These are quite often in dire need of attention.

Like you, my luck has been pretty good with my own horns. But I have purchased countless used horns that needed repair. Horns that have been long forgotten, stored carelessly, loaned out, and generally abused or neglected. All part of the life cycle of a student model instrument. =)