In their own view, Berkeley has:
http://usahorn.com/new/RS-Berkeley/988/Virtuoso-Professional-Tenor-Saxophone-Lacquer.html
I have not seen or tried one, but Nefertite on SOTW thinks they are great.
Why Yamaha for Students?
- Thread starter Al Stevens
- Start date
http://usahorn.com/new/RS-Berkeley/988/Virtuoso-Professional-Tenor-Saxophone-Lacquer.html
I have not seen or tried one, but Nefertite on SOTW thinks they are great.
That's an interesting looking horn because it does look an awful lot like a VI, even the neck. But there are definite differences, the most obvious being that the front altissimo F isn't a pearl, but a teardrop (not necessarily a bad thing) and the bell-to-body brace is completely different.
I haven't done a piece-by-piece comparison, but it's intriguing.
However, I used to play several different Yanagisawa-made Vitos from the 1960's (the jury's out on whether they were B6 or B600 models) and the only visual difference between these horns and the Mark VI, other than the engraving, was the bell-to-body brace, which was a noticeably larger circle. Playing wise, though, they were absolute junk -- which was probably due to the bore.
While the 475 is obviously the equivalent of a 475, let's do the other horns:
* 23: Base model student.
* 32: Intermediate model. Replacement for the 52, depending on the pitch and market. No real difference between the 32 and 52.
* 475: Intermediate model. Replacement for the 52, depending on the pitch and market. The 475 has different lacquer and an "improved" neck than the 52.
* 575: Intermediate model. A 475 with a 62II neck. It's an "Allegro" model that you'll probably not find outside the educational market.
I write about all of the current Yamahas at http://www.thesax.info/mediawiki-1.10.0/index.php?title=Yamaha
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I realize Im jumping in a bit late but I still want to rectify the situation. I don't know why people like to spread rumors when they have absolutely no knowledge of other people's business but wars have started over less.
Parts are readily available for all of my saxophones if they should be needed which I doubt. In fact, I keep necks in stock if someone should lose one which happens with bari necks but much less common with the others. Need a part just call me and a couple of weeks later you'll have it in the mail, period, end of story. Phil Barone
Parts are readily available for all of my saxophones if they should be needed which I doubt. In fact, I keep necks in stock if someone should lose one which happens with bari necks but much less common with the others. Need a part just call me and a couple of weeks later you'll have it in the mail, period, end of story. Phil Barone
Really, the end of the story Phil. (BTW welcome to WF.) I'm still fascinated by the cost of a new instrument being less than an overhaul of an instrument. That truely defines a disposible commodity.
I hear ya and I'm not so sure I like it myself but I considered putting my prices on par with Cannonball and Mauriat but at the end of the day selling the same quality horns to people that otherwise could not afford them and with a great case, mouthpiece and neck, won out. Of course I can't sell to resellers but that's my loss. Thanks for welcoming me.
Phil Barone
My job is to end wars.
Anyhow, Phil, you appear to be responding to a much earlier post from JBT. I think he has a valid concern: while you might be able to get parts for your model saxophones, other folks -- at least, JBT -- expresses some difficulty.
From an end-user perspective, if I buy, say, a Selmer, and need a warranty repair, I can get parts at lots a dealerships -- because lots a folks are Selmer dealers. Sounds like I'd have to ship my horn back to you, if I have problems with your horn, because I can't get parts any other way. When my horn gets OFF warranty and I need parts, where can I go?
At least, I believe that's what JBT's point was ....
Anyhow, Phil, you appear to be responding to a much earlier post from JBT. I think he has a valid concern: while you might be able to get parts for your model saxophones, other folks -- at least, JBT -- expresses some difficulty.
From an end-user perspective, if I buy, say, a Selmer, and need a warranty repair, I can get parts at lots a dealerships -- because lots a folks are Selmer dealers. Sounds like I'd have to ship my horn back to you, if I have problems with your horn, because I can't get parts any other way. When my horn gets OFF warranty and I need parts, where can I go?
At least, I believe that's what JBT's point was ....
Sounds like a good job. You don't mean as a moderator do you? I don't know why you think you'd need to send the horn back to me, why is that? At any rate anyone that has a computer can just put my name into any search engine and find my website very easily and I'm not going any where and if I do someone else will be taking over. That's already been arranged.
For the time being it's very easy to get parts. I have a large poster with a blowup of the horns and all the parts are numbered so all I have to do is narrow the number down and it's done. Very simple.
JBT also seems to think that all the horns are just stamped with different names so there must be numerous sources of parts if this is the case, no? But the bottom line is that it's very unusual that anyone needs a part. I used to do repairs and I don't remember ever needing a part except for pads, springs and the usual stuff to overhaul a sax. Anything else we were able to make in house but we had a lathe and a CNC milling machine and I knew how to use them. I can make any piece that I can't buy and I will if I have to too so everyone can rest easy. Phil Barone
For the time being it's very easy to get parts. I have a large poster with a blowup of the horns and all the parts are numbered so all I have to do is narrow the number down and it's done. Very simple.
JBT also seems to think that all the horns are just stamped with different names so there must be numerous sources of parts if this is the case, no? But the bottom line is that it's very unusual that anyone needs a part. I used to do repairs and I don't remember ever needing a part except for pads, springs and the usual stuff to overhaul a sax. Anything else we were able to make in house but we had a lathe and a CNC milling machine and I knew how to use them. I can make any piece that I can't buy and I will if I have to too so everyone can rest easy. Phil Barone
Nobel Laureate, dude. Just remember how Nobel got all his cash.
While I do agree with you that you can get some parts wherever, that doesn't help me for warranty work -- unless your warranty says that repairs can be made anywhere and you'll reimburse the horn's owner. You or your alternate are the single point of contact.
In any event, I was just trying to illuminate JBT's point. I still think it's a good one. However, I think it's a fairly minimal point.
I've bought several brand spankin' new instruments. The only adjustment I ever needed to do was to put the pearls back on my YBS-52 -- they fell off in transit from the store in Buffalo, NY to my college address. Other than that, I've had no need of a warranty. I take care of my horns, though. Especially for a newish make/model, I'd want to have a warranty that covers defects in design or poor quality. It's just to give me a good feeling, if nothing else. Hey, it's nice to know that if I have a problem with my iPad, I can go to the nearest Apple Store, rather than having to send it back to the dealer or Apple.
Note that in no way am I saying anything about the quality of your instruments, Phil. I'm just saying that if I have to contact you for everything, you're my single point of fail. That's something to consider if you're not buying a "big name" horn, particularly if you're a beginner.
While I do agree with you that you can get some parts wherever, that doesn't help me for warranty work -- unless your warranty says that repairs can be made anywhere and you'll reimburse the horn's owner. You or your alternate are the single point of contact.
In any event, I was just trying to illuminate JBT's point. I still think it's a good one. However, I think it's a fairly minimal point.
I've bought several brand spankin' new instruments. The only adjustment I ever needed to do was to put the pearls back on my YBS-52 -- they fell off in transit from the store in Buffalo, NY to my college address. Other than that, I've had no need of a warranty. I take care of my horns, though. Especially for a newish make/model, I'd want to have a warranty that covers defects in design or poor quality. It's just to give me a good feeling, if nothing else. Hey, it's nice to know that if I have a problem with my iPad, I can go to the nearest Apple Store, rather than having to send it back to the dealer or Apple.
Note that in no way am I saying anything about the quality of your instruments, Phil. I'm just saying that if I have to contact you for everything, you're my single point of fail. That's something to consider if you're not buying a "big name" horn, particularly if you're a beginner.
I don't have time for a full response to this tread, but as a professional repair tech who works on saxophones, I know from first hand experience that there are parts that are commonly needed on all brands. This is not just for student players, but for adult and skilled players as well. Some of commonly needed parts include: (in approximate order of frequency)
- pivot screws
- guard screws
- neck screws
- guard feet
- fork F# key guard
- lower stack key guard
- key guard bumper adjusting screws
- octave mechanism parts
- body neck tenon receiver
- individual keys too damaged to repair
Yamaha, Selmer, Yanagisawa, Jupiter, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. all provide a catalog or website where professional techs can order at least the first six on the list to have in stock when that make and model come in for repair.
If replacement parts weren't important or needed as some people claim then the major brands wouldn't go to the trouble to maintain an inventory that can be shipped the day a tech calls in his order, and received in 2 to 3 business days. This is not only true for saxophones, but all of the other woodwinds and brass as well. It is part of the standard industry practice and has been for many years, that is until the wave of Asian instruments began to hit our shores.
I know the well worn argument that "a competent repair tech can make whatever part is needed". That is absolutely true, but I wouldn't want to pay a tech's $60 per hour shop rate to make a pivot screw, when for another brand he could just go to a drawer, pull one out and charge maybe twice his $1.00 wholesale cost to cover his time and the cost of keeping some on hand. I can go to the junk pile and find a key guard that can be manipulated to fit on a nice looking saxophone, but it costs more than the correct new one because of the time it took to modify it and it looks like s**t to boot. I tell the unhappy customer, it is at least functional, and I'm sorry but this brand doesn't care enough to make parts available after the sale.
I would like to see the cut rate vendors of off shore saxophones add a page to their fancy websites giving the price of the above commonly needed parts IN ALL AVAILABLE FINISHES and information on how to order them. They could order these parts in sufficient quantities to meet expected demand from the factory that makes their saxophones each time an order is placed.
Sure it would add a small amount to their business overhead, but in terms of customer relations and customer service it would pay dividends---especially when they advertise "We care enough about service after the sale to back up our instruments with repair parts".
Besides, the cost could be added to the purchase price or absorbed by the vendor in their profit margin. Either way it would be an improvement over the status quo where the customers of their brands are on their own where commonly needed parts are concerned.
I just get tired of the "spin" and tap dancing around the subject by those vendors who claim to back up their instruments with parts, but in reality do not and have no intention of doing so.
It's a good thing I didn't have time to write what I really think about this topic.
- pivot screws
- guard screws
- neck screws
- guard feet
- fork F# key guard
- lower stack key guard
- key guard bumper adjusting screws
- octave mechanism parts
- body neck tenon receiver
- individual keys too damaged to repair
Yamaha, Selmer, Yanagisawa, Jupiter, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. all provide a catalog or website where professional techs can order at least the first six on the list to have in stock when that make and model come in for repair.
If replacement parts weren't important or needed as some people claim then the major brands wouldn't go to the trouble to maintain an inventory that can be shipped the day a tech calls in his order, and received in 2 to 3 business days. This is not only true for saxophones, but all of the other woodwinds and brass as well. It is part of the standard industry practice and has been for many years, that is until the wave of Asian instruments began to hit our shores.
I know the well worn argument that "a competent repair tech can make whatever part is needed". That is absolutely true, but I wouldn't want to pay a tech's $60 per hour shop rate to make a pivot screw, when for another brand he could just go to a drawer, pull one out and charge maybe twice his $1.00 wholesale cost to cover his time and the cost of keeping some on hand. I can go to the junk pile and find a key guard that can be manipulated to fit on a nice looking saxophone, but it costs more than the correct new one because of the time it took to modify it and it looks like s**t to boot. I tell the unhappy customer, it is at least functional, and I'm sorry but this brand doesn't care enough to make parts available after the sale.
I would like to see the cut rate vendors of off shore saxophones add a page to their fancy websites giving the price of the above commonly needed parts IN ALL AVAILABLE FINISHES and information on how to order them. They could order these parts in sufficient quantities to meet expected demand from the factory that makes their saxophones each time an order is placed.
Sure it would add a small amount to their business overhead, but in terms of customer relations and customer service it would pay dividends---especially when they advertise "We care enough about service after the sale to back up our instruments with repair parts".
Besides, the cost could be added to the purchase price or absorbed by the vendor in their profit margin. Either way it would be an improvement over the status quo where the customers of their brands are on their own where commonly needed parts are concerned.
I just get tired of the "spin" and tap dancing around the subject by those vendors who claim to back up their instruments with parts, but in reality do not and have no intention of doing so.
It's a good thing I didn't have time to write what I really think about this topic.
I think that this "no parts" policy has evolved over the years.
In the good old days, much of the horn was made by the manufacturer. Thus, Selmer started out producing everything save the case. Sheet brass and steel rod from the jobber were converted into the finished horn with some laquer and engraving steels.
Then, some parts started getting outsourced. Standardized stuff like pads and pivot screws and the like could more conveniently be produced by machinery and specialized employees working for someone else.
Then came stenciling - complete horns purchased from a horn manufacturer, a new name applied, and the end product shipped out as "our horn". Not exactly traditional craftsmanship, but still the guys producing the horns were as much artisans as were the Selmer boys back in the day. They just worked for less.
But, we are one step beyond this now. Production has shipped from formerly cheap but now precision Japan to formerly cheap but now almost as precision Taiwan and Korea, to formerly cheap (and still cheap, in my opinion from what I have seen) mainland China. Not a good thing, at least in my eyes.
Chinese production of everything is always a "low bid" proposition. A firm that does "a good job" on a Chinese saxophone may flip completely in the time that it takes to empty a box of screws, and let production on the next series out to the low bidder. And, that low bidder may not feel the same way about the metal in the screws when it is time to order another box.
I have seen Chinese copies of American firearms that (from outward appearances) are identical to Colt automatic pistols, Browning automatic rifles, and several models of Thompson submachine guns. Then you open them up, strip the bolt or barrels out, and find out that none of the parts are interchangeable, a touchstone of Western production for the last hundred and seventy five years, and that the interior is a poorly milled and finished mess.
Hell, I've even seen a Chinese produced mud pump (on an oil rig) that had a dummy safety valve - made that way and shipped from the factory. You just can not tell what they're going to skimp on next.
It's the very nature of Chinese production. It may change in the future, just as Japanese production has moved from tinny little cars to luxury models that hold up to the best that we can produce. But, my money's not on the Chinese Communists any time soon
In the good old days, much of the horn was made by the manufacturer. Thus, Selmer started out producing everything save the case. Sheet brass and steel rod from the jobber were converted into the finished horn with some laquer and engraving steels.
Then, some parts started getting outsourced. Standardized stuff like pads and pivot screws and the like could more conveniently be produced by machinery and specialized employees working for someone else.
Then came stenciling - complete horns purchased from a horn manufacturer, a new name applied, and the end product shipped out as "our horn". Not exactly traditional craftsmanship, but still the guys producing the horns were as much artisans as were the Selmer boys back in the day. They just worked for less.
But, we are one step beyond this now. Production has shipped from formerly cheap but now precision Japan to formerly cheap but now almost as precision Taiwan and Korea, to formerly cheap (and still cheap, in my opinion from what I have seen) mainland China. Not a good thing, at least in my eyes.
Chinese production of everything is always a "low bid" proposition. A firm that does "a good job" on a Chinese saxophone may flip completely in the time that it takes to empty a box of screws, and let production on the next series out to the low bidder. And, that low bidder may not feel the same way about the metal in the screws when it is time to order another box.
I have seen Chinese copies of American firearms that (from outward appearances) are identical to Colt automatic pistols, Browning automatic rifles, and several models of Thompson submachine guns. Then you open them up, strip the bolt or barrels out, and find out that none of the parts are interchangeable, a touchstone of Western production for the last hundred and seventy five years, and that the interior is a poorly milled and finished mess.
Hell, I've even seen a Chinese produced mud pump (on an oil rig) that had a dummy safety valve - made that way and shipped from the factory. You just can not tell what they're going to skimp on next.
It's the very nature of Chinese production. It may change in the future, just as Japanese production has moved from tinny little cars to luxury models that hold up to the best that we can produce. But, my money's not on the Chinese Communists any time soon
I'm seriously considering the Korean Hyundai Genesis when I buy my next car in a couple years. It has won tons of awards and is considered one of the most comfortable luxury cars. It's inexpensive as a new car and will be even more so as used. Heck, both my Taurus and Mustang convertible hovered around the same price ($30K), new.
Korean cars went from junk to really good in about 10 years.
Korean cars went from junk to really good in about 10 years.
No way, buster!
I've been stuck with both Hyndais and Kias as long term rentals when working over in N'Awlins for month long details. Neither was their top of the line model, but both were as bad as Chrysler junk, particularly when dealing with the less than optimal roads in the Crescent City.
Unless they've improved massively in the last two years, I wouldn't even bother to look at them.
Oh, and most automotive awards are industry-based feel good stuff. JD Powers is quite capable of being wrong when money issues are concerned.
I've been stuck with both Hyndais and Kias as long term rentals when working over in N'Awlins for month long details. Neither was their top of the line model, but both were as bad as Chrysler junk, particularly when dealing with the less than optimal roads in the Crescent City.
Unless they've improved massively in the last two years, I wouldn't even bother to look at them.
Oh, and most automotive awards are industry-based feel good stuff. JD Powers is quite capable of being wrong when money issues are concerned.
Now, now. You're gonna get the Hemi owners mad.
(How to annoy a Chrysler owner whose vehicle has a "Hemi": tell him "hemi" means "half," so he's got half a good engine. I keed, I keed. Hey, I owned a Cordoba with the "soft Corinthian leather." I'll regal y'all with stories about the K-car I "owned" at some other time.)
*Ahem*. Yes, I've had friends with older Hyundais and they weren't impressed, even though the cars have 10-year warranties. However, that was several years ago. I don't doubt that they've improved. Hey, their cars now look an awful lot nicer, too.
(How to annoy a Chrysler owner whose vehicle has a "Hemi": tell him "hemi" means "half," so he's got half a good engine. I keed, I keed. Hey, I owned a Cordoba with the "soft Corinthian leather." I'll regal y'all with stories about the K-car I "owned" at some other time.)
*Ahem*. Yes, I've had friends with older Hyundais and they weren't impressed, even though the cars have 10-year warranties. However, that was several years ago. I don't doubt that they've improved. Hey, their cars now look an awful lot nicer, too.
We have a car with a hemi engine (the term refers to the format of the cylinder heads - they are hemispherical in shape instead of "flat" as was traditional in the old days), specifically a smart Passion coupe. It infuriates Chrysler owners when the topic comes up.
Having worked for nigh on forty years with the Federal government, I was treated to government cars purchased from whichever manufacturer was going broke at the time they were purchased. American Motors junk, Chrysler (specifically, our exploding (literally, the heating system blew up on two of them) Dodge Omni) junk, Ford junk (although my Pinto sedan was a nifty little car, exploding gas tank or not), General Motors junk - they almost all were worthless.
There were exceptions:
I had a Jeep CJ convertible for six months - that was pretty neat. I stripped off the hard roof installed by Uncle and the doors, put all of my equipment in a big locked case in the back end, and off roaded to oil rigs for a whole three months.
There was the Pinto mentioned above.
There was the twenty-four passenger school bus that was all that they had at the motor pool as a loaner one time for two weeks - I drove the whole office out to dinner in that.
And, I had a huge yellow Dodge Ram pickup for two years that was just great.
But, for every one of those, there were at least two 1968 Ford Galaxy sedans that were just dreadful.
Having worked for nigh on forty years with the Federal government, I was treated to government cars purchased from whichever manufacturer was going broke at the time they were purchased. American Motors junk, Chrysler (specifically, our exploding (literally, the heating system blew up on two of them) Dodge Omni) junk, Ford junk (although my Pinto sedan was a nifty little car, exploding gas tank or not), General Motors junk - they almost all were worthless.
There were exceptions:
I had a Jeep CJ convertible for six months - that was pretty neat. I stripped off the hard roof installed by Uncle and the doors, put all of my equipment in a big locked case in the back end, and off roaded to oil rigs for a whole three months.
There was the Pinto mentioned above.
There was the twenty-four passenger school bus that was all that they had at the motor pool as a loaner one time for two weeks - I drove the whole office out to dinner in that.
And, I had a huge yellow Dodge Ram pickup for two years that was just great.
But, for every one of those, there were at least two 1968 Ford Galaxy sedans that were just dreadful.
Did it ever make it past 2nd gear on the highway? Ours had a 40/60 chance of doing it above 55. (The 69 LTD on the other hand was wonderful, as was the 73 2dr. I miss that car. My brother wrapped it around a tree, but walked away.)
I vote that we rename this thread:
THE "DRIVE BY" HIJACKING THREAD
How can anyone keep arguing about the importance of repair parts for saxophones when you folks keep talking about car stuff.
(Or maybe that is why you are talking about car stuff )
THE "DRIVE BY" HIJACKING THREAD
How can anyone keep arguing about the importance of repair parts for saxophones when you folks keep talking about car stuff.
(Or maybe that is why you are talking about car stuff
)